Hi everyone,

I just wanted to share an experience with you and people in hospitals. As you know, I lost my hearing to labyrinthitis an inflammation of the vestibular system. I was young at the time and I went for testing where they put me on a table and tuner me upside down . They put water in my ears hot and cold, forced air, and spun me around. All this caused extreme vertigo and at the time, they asked me to count back from 1000 by subtracting sevens, at the time I did not realize the purpose of this exercise. I have found out it is a technique that keeps the patient focussed and from letting anxieties and panic attack during the test to take over. This was my first testing and the people who did it treated me very well as I was still a child. They kept asking me to count and were saying things like good effort and it will not be to long before we finish.

Then I became an adult and went for similar type of testing as above. The same anxieties and panic attacks happened again only this time I was older. Therefore, I was met with anger that this test caused anxiety and panic attack. It seems to me that when you are a child people understand about the torture you are going through but as an adult, you should have full control over your emotions. In a sense, they are right as a child you are less likely to understand what is going on but as an adult, you should know and be able to calm yourself. This statement is half-true, as an adult we have greater insight and therefore, we can work through this program and gain insight that I child could not. However, because this program is here and I have not seen any crayon marks in the post I thinking that most of the people are adults on the site, and were unable until we hit bottom to finally figure out what was going on. This is not a failure or a negative thought it is just reality and from a statistic point of view, there are a considerable amount of adults, which struggle with panic attacks and anxieties.

So in affect I am answering loves trees question about wanting a person to help us through our troubles, for me this thought is apparent because of the way was treated as a child with understanding and compassion about my illness. Which I think I brought forward into adulthood the desire for someone to be compassionate with me and help me through this time of my life. However, I realize this is unrealistic, and as you said, you have to do it yourself. If you think about it if someone helps you through it and then leaves you do not have the tools for keeping yourself better.

On to Davit experience, I do not know if this story helps you but you are treated differently in a hospital when you are an adult, you are supposed to take the pain, not complain about it, and not react emotionally to it. With your family, I have been talking to my Dad about my fears and anxieties and telling him discoveries, I have made. He has OCD so you would think if anyone would understand I would be him. However, he cannot stand me talking to me about fear and anxieties and I think that it is because my fear comes from a core belief that I have identified in myself but my Dad has not. I think this is why it bothers him so much because he does not realize what I am taking about gets to one of his core belief that the has not identified. Therefore, I stop talking to him about anything I am doing because it is met with anger and the suggestion that I should just avoid the situation that causes me so many problems. (One can see where I got the avoidance concept from)

Dizzy

I asked an educator if I could bring this topic up and I was told that it opens the site up to possible unscrupulous individuals that would take advantage of people suffering with money troubles. Well since you started the topic, I am going to throw my two cents in. One thing that can be done is if you have a high credit card balance but own your house you can get I line of credit on your house for  about 3.25%. Then you pay off all your credit cards at 21% and pay the line of credit off. The most important point here is to put away your credit cards and live on what you have.

How to plan for what you have, you should make a budget out and put down all your expenses in a month that include everything you pay for in a year. For example, property taxes if you own a home and dental care all the things you do not think about but end up paying money. Then you look at what is coming in terms of income. If your income matches, you total expenses for the year then you are ok, but one thing you should do I set aside an envelope for  every expense and how much you need to put in each month for each expense. Again, property taxes will serve as an example you may pay them all at once or as the municipality gives you a payment schedule. Every month you put in the amount needed to pay your property taxes when it comes time to paying them, you will have accumulated enough in the envelope to pay them that way no surprises.

Then with other expenses like food, you calculate how much you have to spend in a month say it $600.00. This is where thing start to become tough $600.00 may be enough to live on but it does not but you the things you like to eat. So try to stay as healthy as possible and say cut out the pop or wine expense you can always drink water.

You have to prioritize your expenses, so having a roof over your head and eating and all the expense that go with each seem to be a good place to start. Then you may have to be a Scrooge this year and not spend as much on Christmas presents, remember in Who Ville Christmas till came without the presents.

You should also put an envelope away for things that you are not preparing for there is always these types of expenses, especially if you own a home. You may get water in the basement, or other unexpected expense may come up.

In the end you have reduced your credit to as low as possible and have an envelope for everything that you spend money on in a year. You have prioritized your expenses so that you can meet you yearly expense with what is currently income that is coming in.

If things are bad, consider using the food bank as a possible resource to cut down on expenses, however you have to prove that you are paying a certain percentage of you income on a place to rent. There is no shame I going for help where it is.

Also, consider if you have two cars and only one person is working if you need the extra car right now. Or if you have one car and it is easy to get to work on transit you may want to just put the car aside for now and keep it if you can but stop paying insurance on it and all the other fun things like gas (got to love that HST).

If you are both out of work or you are on your own and you are on this site because you have agoraphobia consider applying for ODSP (Ontario Disability Support Program). You have to meet certain criteria to get ODSP such as a needs assessment and asset test. In other words, you can only have $5,000 to your name and have no income coming in or RRSP to cash in or many other assets. However, you can have a home and a car, which are exempt under assets. For one person you are likely to get about $1000.00 a month which $464 is for your home and the remaining is for basic needs like food.  You also have to be disabled enough that you cannot get a job. However, again you can work when you are on ODSP but they reduce your payments to you by 50 % of what you made in that month. I could go on forever, but you will need to look in to this yourself and see if you meet the standards assets test, income test and being disabled enough. You can look into this by Goggle Ontario Disability Support Program Income Support Directives for information about the whole program.

Another thing to consider is if you are on this site and sufficiently disabled enough to be agoraphobic you may want to apply for the Disability Tax Credit. This is a harder thing to get because it requires significantly more disability then ODSP. Such as not able to do basic daily activities, however if you are agoraphobic you may qualify because you unable to leave the house. You or your spouse can use this tax credit and you can go back 10 years if you have been suffering that long and re-file tax returns to get money back. I cannot tell you how to go about this because as the educator said someone could con you into paying them to get this tax credit and not deliver. I suggest you look up the Disability Tax Credit forms and see if you are eligible for it. I warn you know that there are sites on the internet that will do all the work for you but they want 30% of whatever they get for you and you lose $25 if nothing happens. My suggestion is that you look into it yourself first and if you think you are eligible then consult an accountant with a designation and have him or her re-file your tax return for you if you can get the disability tax credit. One final point is that you have to been disabled for ten years to go back ten years, but if you meet the requirements it can mean a significant tax reduction for your spouse because he or she can claim the disability tax credit and others if you cannot because you do not have enough income this year. I recommend that you not take my or anyone’s advice on this but do some homework and get a qualified person to do what need to be done. That means someone who is qualified about what disabilities are eligible for this credit becuase common law has extended some of the definitions on what constitutes a disability. Such as, the government says you have to disabled enough that you cannot cloth yourself. However, the courts extended this definition to mean, that to cloth yourself, you have to be able to do the laundry, this you will not find on any definition the government has on disabilities that qualify. I will not anwser any question on this thread as I said invesigate for yourself and get help if you need it from someone who is qualified.

 I have in the back of my mind that I will not be able to conquer attacks until I have endured anxiety symptoms and proved to myself that I can withstand the symptoms.  I have decided that I will not be able to solve the attacks until I solve the problem of working with attack (anxiety) and confusion and being competent enough to keep my job without resorting to my old habit of tensing up to avoid confusion.

To be perfectly honest here tensing up did not work anyway it is more of a way of fighting the anxiety then an actual strategy that works. Feeling the way I do know and not having an attack today  but having anxiety  yesterday I do not feel any better for not having an attack. I said it before that not having an attack is not going to get rid of the confusion from working and the anxiety from writing or making a mistake that I developed as a child. Therefore,  I do not need an attack to have symptoms while working I have enough anxiety to create symptoms with just working alone.

Upon starting this whole expedition to having no panic attacks and anxiety, I thought that when I got to this level where I am now that it would struggle with dizziness the thing that started my attacks. Therefore, in the back of my mind I figured I would have to take the dizziness and accept it as my way out of it or prove that I can take it. This thought has not gone away it has just morphed into having to a fight with confusion. The fact that there is nothing I can do about it and I have to prove myself that I can handle the confusion and be able to work. This would be the first victory I would have in my mind with attacks and not acting in a maladaptive way towards them or AVOIDING situations.

How can I cognitively get myself out of a thought that I have to accept symptoms to prove to myself that there is nothing to be feared from attacks.  I think that I knew all along that even if I got rid of attacks that I was going to be a battle to just work with all the sensations I have from just simple things like a temperature change.

I have been reading a book on acceptance of symptoms  and it made it clear to me all the things I was avoiding, an outside life, work outside, friends, and family, social occasions. When I look through my life all I can see is more and more avoidance although not agoraphobia as it is defined.

I have CBT away my attacks from turning in bed, which was the old trigger. Then the attack reason became wanting to get out of bed without an attack to avoided confusion. Then I worked on that thought about trying to get rid of confusion to be able to go back to work. The book I am reading says that I put up this symptom as a way to avoided all the things in my life. To be quite honest it is always something. This I have learned through CBT that I always come up with an excuse “if I just could rid of “, I would be able to do everything I wanted. I know this is a false statement. I am battling not just panic attacks, but a lifetime of core beliefs that give me symptoms.

I am concluding that I may never get rid of all the symptoms or if I do, it will have to be done behaviorally. That is as Davit would say I have to face the dragons outside the house. Perhaps the one thing I can take from this site is not to jump in 100% to start gradually doing things that I have avoided. All the things I have avoided cause symptoms but I do not think they are attacks.

This does not mean I am giving up on CBT I just think I am in a circular loop that I have to get out of bed to have no confusion so I can go back to work. I cannot go back to work in a confused state. I really see no way out of this loop cognitively but I can see a way out behaviorally. The book I am reading talks about mindfulness and I see this as a way to still be in confusion state and to be able to work through it at the same time. Then confusion is no longer a danger.

Any thoughts if someone could cognitively get me out of my circular loop I would love to hear it.

Dizzy

I was reading the doctors explanation for being in a hyper-arousal state for changing body sensation that cause an attack. In the toolbox, they mention thing like being out on a hot day and then going into a grocery store and noticing your heart may be beating due to the heat. This makes sense to me. I also read that Davit trigger was a cramp in his leg. Most of my attacks are in bed and I have been wondering for a while that when I identify a symptom as an attack this is the genesis of an attack. In other words I turn over and all of a sudden my heart starts pounding I have waited for a while to see if my heart will stop (perhaps this is part of the  problem), my hyperactive attention to see if my heart pounding will stop. Then as I wait for it to stop, I start getting additional symptoms usually dizziness or unreality this is probably when I say in my mind this is an attack. I have been thinking that as soon as I identify the symptoms as an attack that I have a panic attack. The only thing I cannot answer, using the doctors corner is what could be the cause of heart pounding when in bed. I am not in the heat of the sun as the toolbox says, the only thing I can think of as that when I wake up you are in a parasympathetic state. You have a  lower blood pressure lower heart rate, and perhaps when I turn in bed and switching to a more awake state my body  shifts from a parasympathetic to a normal heart rate.

Is there a logical explanation for heart pounding when in bed other than the one I put above. Perhaps the people with some success with attacks could tell me that they experience every sensation that is in the panic attack symptom Diary, without having an attack. I have identified that I am always dizzy and do not look for this sensation any more unless it is coupled with other ones. Perhaps the teachers could answer the question is it possible to have every symptom in the panic checker Diary and there being another reason for it. I am specifically identifying symptoms in the panic diary meaning a mono symptom. I guess what I am asking does a (normal) person experience unreality as a mono symptom without an attack.

I get all the symptoms that I usually identify as an attack when I work out but in this case, I can see the reason for an increased heart rate. When I look up an anxiety state I do not find an increase in heart rate, I thought perhaps this might be an explanation for it. Perhaps the whole answer is to stop trying to find explication for every symptom and just accept that this is I right now (which am what I have done about the dizziness).

In my support group, the author says that the identification of the source of a scare immediately stops it from becoming an attack. Such as a loud noise outside, you may be thinking that it is your partner in an accident. Then when you look and see what the noise was, it is a bunch of kids fooling around. The panic attack is immediately  terminated because there is an indefinable reason for the noise that does not fit the anxiety of your partner being in an accident.

I believe that this is what we are looking for when we have symptoms an identifiable reason for it. If I have done all the CBT I can do and ten question to prove that my heart does not pound every time I turn in bed and even some time I get out of bed without an attack. The only thing that I am left with is that the symptoms I am having are turned into an attack because I identify them as the start of one.

Dizzy

Red, I am extremely pleased that you found my post intersting, but if I were to give you one piece of advice is to stay away from my observations. I am not putting myself down by saying this but I am the type of person who has to have a reason for everything, trying to find a reason put me in the position that I am in now. I believe that I goggled myself into an illness as my attack started from labyrinthitis and from there I found a medical explanation for everything that was happening to me that no doctor could test for or say no I was wrong. However, my journey is not a waste even if I have to give up trying to find explanations for everything. I have found a lot out about myself in the last two years then 40 years of my life. I refer to the philosopher Socrates’, when asked by one of his student do you know yourself, he answer I know a little more about not knowing. I think he may have been saying that there are some things to accept and move on.

I have another question for anyone if working out is supposed to simulate an attack, does that mean every symptom on the daily symptom tracker can occur. For example after I work out my body tenses up then ay night I get tingling in my body, I asked the doctor about the tingling he said he cannot answer the question. If I get tingling from working and it lasts all night, and I know I am not having an attack. If you get tingling from working out that lasts a long time can the same be true for a panic attack. When I read symptoms of a panic attack they seem to me that are saying that during the attack all these symptoms can happen. Such as pounding heart shortness of breathe which in me go away very quickly, but I have a long after affect from an attack or working out such as tingling in my body.

I noticed Red that you say after a startle you have a long adrenaline period, am I to infer that you are keyed up or tense for a long time after an attack. Are you experiencing at least one of the symptoms of a panic attack stay with you for a while during your cooling down period.

Dizzy

Hi Red, I want to share some things I have learned despite having an attack every day. I preface this with, that what I am about to tell you I no way means you should do the same or think the same way.

1)      The hallmark of any anxiety disorder is avoidance, no matter whether it is panic attack disorder, PTSD, phobia, social anxiety, OCD, and GAD. In panic attack, you avoid a situation or thought and situation; in a phobia, you avoid snakes or spiders; in OCD, you avoid germs them you try reduce anxiety by acting compulsively when washing your hands; GAD avoid anything that causes worry or anxiety; finally PTSD you avoid the thoughts of the situation. There is one thing that I know that once you start avoiding one thing its mushrooms in to more. Perhaps your Pandora ’s Box is somewhere you should look when you are up to it and maybe you should ask for some help outside the panic attack center if you think it would help.

2)      I have learned that when I feel exhausted that most of the time it is just my mind telling this and that in fact my muscles are quite able to do what I think they cannot. Again, I preface this with when I started challenging the tiered feeling I started out with a 15 min walk. It has taken me 1 and half years latter but now I can pump weighs to the point where I cannot tire myself out. Then I can do 30 min on the bike with 8min going uphill in the same day. Again sometime my mind tells me I too tired and I cannot achieve all these things mention above but I will still lift weight and maybe bike for 20 min. in any case I do not listen to what my mind tells me about being tired.

3)      I am sure you know that felling are not facts, nor are thoughts and sensations. The feeling one I explained above but I can add that when I have an attack every day, that everything I do is coloured with the after effects of an attack, making whatever I am doing seem as if was anxiety related when it is just the reminisce of an attack. Doing the 10 question paper should be enough to tell you that you thoughts are not fact, in most cases they are judgements about you anxiety or other things; and the judgements’ are not true either if you challenged one with 10 questions and came to a different judgement. Finally, sensation I know this one is hard to believe but if you had an attack and you feel, hot from it you may say I feel feverish. However if you took your temperature you would find out that you do not have a fever. Or another one when I have an attack I say it causes head pressure it actually feels as if my head is being pushed upward, I can tell you right know that I am not getting taller when I have an attack. Finally back to being fatigued this is just a thought for me most of the time there are the rare occasions when I do not do much working out.

Do not take what I have said as something that you should do I have just found these things to be true for me. Your friend,

Dizzy

Hate to get technical with everyone but there is research about human interaction having a chemical effect. The effect is supposed to be in a neuromodulation called oxytocin. Google yourself into to health this time by looking the neuromodulator up, it is a good news thing instead of goggling yourself into a bad news. Red I hope I did not annoy you with my last post, about working out I meant it is something that I found my mind was telling me the opposite of the truth. Thanks for putting the fear in me of ignoring my mind and working out instead, which could lead to heart failure. Just kidding I hope you have a sense of humour in trying to live your life, if there is one thing that people say that has changed in me, it is that I laugh again. Although I find sometimes when I make I joke and start to laugh I look inwards to the way my body feels and think how I could be laughing when I feel rotten. As you said, I do not try to find the answer out anymore. This one for Davit also I analyzed in a positive way for a change.

Dizzy

A question about  Panic Attacks out there, I was talking to my CBT a couple of days ago and he remains adamant in doing relaxed breathing during an attack. I do not disagree with him on this point. However, I said to him that I never hyperventilate during my attack, he was astonished at this fact and said that all “Panic Attack” involve hyperventilating. I disagree I remember reading that your reaction could be to stop breathing however I do not do this either. The point of going to CBT and sites is to believe what you are experiencing is not out of the norm and consequently there is nothing special about your panic attack. Do not misunderstand me everyone attack are different from everyone else’s but we all have the same identifiable symptoms to varying digress and intensities. My point in asking this question is to see if I am the only one in the world with this reaction, because my CBT makes me feel this way. Perhaps after some responses this is an area I have to work on that thought that even if it is a small occurrence of not hyperventilating that I have to change my attitude towards my CBT because it is me that is inferring how I feel from him saying this is not normal.

Dizzy

PS. I was indeed dizzy while writing this.