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13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
A question about Panic Attacks

Davit
 
I have one trigger and that is not wanting to have an attack in the first place. I have self-diagnosed that I am in a state of hyper arousal most of the day. I know that every thing I do unless I do nothing I have some sort of stress response to it. This comes from my early years as you may remember. I have tried all sorts of thing like you suggested before and, during an attack. Anything I try just brings me to the fact that I am striving not to have an attack. Along ago post from you, basically gave me the answer I think I need and that is just acceptance of what is going on. I have denied my inner felling for to long that is what got me in a state of hyper arousal. As you know felling are not true nor are thoughts or sensations this is the realm I have been working on. It is easier and quicker for me that if a negative thought comes into my mind (I can know identify them) to let them pass just as an event just as panic passes and pain ebbs and flows. I think one of my main discoveries is that I do not like change but life is never the same from one moment to the next. Even if I were to say I had the same attack and rated it on the same scale of 1 to 10 it would not be the same attack. why because I am one day older and my body is one day older and I know what the previous attack was like even if I think it is the same as the next. I am working on dealing with stress in my life more so then an attack. i know the attack is stressful and produces symptoms for awhile but as is said before when I was trying to control them through breathing I was still having the same symptoms all day even if I had a small attack, from just tying to work. This would cause me to try and change the way I was feeling right at that moment, I have been thinking that if you can not accept where you are know you cannot heal and move forward. So I think I have to accept that things that bother me and cause stress. Like writing I have challengend it to death both with CBT and other methods I have basiclly given up on trying to spell things correctly becuase as I told you before I am learning disable and spelling is a chalange for me. So I let the computer correct the spelling, but my body has not caught up with my new veiw of wrinting it still produces symptoms and I think they are learned and have to be unlearned.
 
Dizzy
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
A question about Panic Attacks

Davit
 
You hit the nail on the head, when you said that fear of an attack or thinking about one comming is exactly my trigger. I have CBT all trigers away but it always come back to the same underlieng thought would'nt life be a little bit better if they stopped. There lies the trap I have learned that you take a beating self-esteem wise when you picture a life after not living in the moment (exp no attacks). In terms of anger the group I go to (and this is just jargin) but here are two types of anger one against soemone and one against yourself. The one against yourself is called fearfull anger becuase you are beating yourself up for everything you did wrong. This is where I have to change or accept my thinking and let it pass. I have any number of ways of continueing to beat up on myself and CBT contrubuted to this by showing me that what I was thinking was false or negative. Do not missunderstand me I needed to know where the drangons lie, but before I started anything about CBT or therapist I had some days where I just decided that I was not going to have an attack and I did not. Unfortunatley it lasted a few days (ingnorance is bliss). I would imagine they came back becuase of the way I was thinking althought I cannot remmeber becuase I was not watching my thoughts at the time. I do not know how to ten question myself out of "my life would be a bit better if the attack stopped". I do not know if it is true that it would be better nore do I have any evidence that it would not. What is the worst thing that can happen, a far as I am concerned I am living it. That is why I believe that acceptance of all emotions and attacks and everything else is my way out. I think I said it before my way in was denial of everything relating to emotions. So to get what I want I have to accept everything I rejected that started me in this 30 year of attacks.
 
Dizzy
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
my view of my setback

 

I would like to share everyone with my view of my setback. I have been complaining that I have not made much progress in awhile. Then yesterday happened I do not want to emphasize the panic attack but the attack was a dozy. Having this kind of attack showed me how good it was to be not getting anywhere. I know everyone going to think I am on drugs, yes I am but there all prescribed.

Dizzy

13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
my view of my setback

I do not believe this was a bad experiences. I think it showed me what everyone else have been saying "you have made so much progress" but I do not see it. People on the site  may not notice the change becuase I spent a year and half getting rid of tension I had built up for years "if you could have seen me then I think you would say it is a miracle". Staying in a position of not getting better for awhile is not bad either, perhaps this was my body telling my mind there are things left unexplored or false thoughts that need to be looked at. I talk about my sensation being around all day and I am comming to an understanding that it is at least possible that I am paying to much attention to them perhaps I even fear them. Or I may be using my preoccupation with symptoms to stop me from looking at what I am currently thinking. It seems unlikely that an minor attack can cause an all day symptoms and it is more likely that I am doing more work now and there is a lot of anxiety surrounding this. What made it a bad one Ashely is the constant striving for things to be different and then I will be happy. I think I temporarily stopped accepting the fear and fought it during the attack. However, even after the bad one I was still able to complete a trust return, something I believe I would not have done a year ago. I also believe I put time pressure on myself striving for thing to be different by a certain time so that I can do this or that. Well I turns out that one of the things I wanted to do was work more so I am in a sense OK right know. This does not mean I will stop trying to get better but I does mean that I am going to stop beating myself up for not doing it on schedule. I think that in healing things have to unfold in there own time you cannot one day just say the attacks are going to stop and they will for the remainder of your life.
 
Dizzy
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
My impression after leaving the grief toolbox

I would like to share with people my impression after leaving the grief toolbox. As the toolbox said, there are many forms of grief, one is losing a person. I think when I lost my job (although a temporary relief because I thought all the feeling I was having was due to the building sickness, when I was actually fear). When I lost my job I lost a sense of myself, I became isolated and did not want to seek out work because I assumed the building was making me sick. Therefore, avoidance of things worked for a while. However, as the grief toolbox said I became isolated and this is how grief turns into depression and anxiety, which, certainly happened to me.

I have come to the decision that I do not want the old self even thought I lost him, he was unafraid of everything or at least he thought so because the fear manifested itself in physical symptoms’ which I could control, without exploring the truth behind my sensations.

I seemed to be building a new self one that accepts his fears and anxiety and physical presentation of them. Curiously, I have started to expand my circle of friends, perhaps better friend then before. As loves trees and Davit said I am trying to accept my orange personality in a sea of apples.

I find it somehow odd that I left the grief toolbox to last and in a sense, it put almost everything that I have been struggling with together in a new light. I knew all the things that I said above that losing, a job was a stressor and that I isolated myself, but I wonder if anyone else lost a sense of him or herself, and is trying to rebuild him or herself from the ground up. I do not see this as a bad thing I just wished I had come to see it a lot sooner. Yes my last statement is a negative thought, as I try to stop continually beating up on myself.

I think I have been noticing changes in myself, in those things that would have made me mad I just drop now. Things that I have done wrong really most of them are a trivialities when you consider the main goal is long-term mental health. It seems not worth worrying about the small stuff anymore and dropping the right and wrong in my daily life.

Dizzy
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Just a question for everyone who has anxiety as well as panic attacks

 
Just a question for everyone who has anxiety as well as panic attacks. They say there is a mind body connection, which I truly believe. We are working on the mind in CBT and in a sense our body with behaviour. I just discovered something on the internet I have not looked at it much yet but would like an opinion of people who have or educators.  Our minds can create tension in body then when we are in this frame of mind,  (Stress causing tension) is it possible that we are also adding to the tension with maladaptive ways we hold our bodies. This makes total sense to me when you think your abilities are outweigh by your coping mechanism. Perhaps we also add postural distress to this stress by the way we hold our bodies (hunching over). This allows you to get into a body position while say, working, that is learned just as the false belief is learned in your mind. There happens to be a person who deals with this maladaptive behaviour Alexander Technique Self Study. I have known that I hold my body I a defeatist attitude when I have made a mistake and am trying to correct. I can even go back to school and remember the way my body was when I could not read due to double vision. I also remember that my religious professor said that you carry your lifetime in your body or face. I know I read that people whom spread themselves out at a desk such as putting your feet on the desk and spreading out actually make a lower stress hormone as measured in the saliva, as compared to a person who holds him or herself confined. I am wondering that how you hold your body may have as much affect as how you think, one plays on the other. Is this Alexander Technique Self Study bogus? If it is, are my observations also wrong about the way we have come to hold our bodies in a defeatist attitude, hunched over, head stooped, stomach tightened.
Dizzy
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Just a question for everyone who has anxiety as well as panic attacks

CndGuy
 
You are right about the stomach. Have you ever herd the expression take a Cra* and get out of here. This is sometimes the response from a panic attack that your body wants to get rid of all excess weight so that you can run better.
 
Also did you know that there is more serotonin in your gut then in your head. One can see how the mind gut reaction occurs in this case.
 
Dizzy
 
 
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Has anyone tried a live CBT group?

Red
 
I go to a live group of CBT (but most of us are dead at the time). What happens is we use a book that everyone reads, we read a chapter from it. Then three members give an example first the situation, then the symptoms they produced, then what tools we used to change our thinking. Then the remainder of the group comments on the example given using what we call spotting (alternative thinking) on the firsts persons example. Not to judge or to say what the person giving the example was wrong but to reinforce or own thinking patterns and give insight to the other persons example (something they may have mist). A new member came from another group where they sat around and gave examples of situations they had a hard time in and (as he said) the group tries to console the person and tries to help. Our new group member did not find this group particularly helpful. To each as our own.
 
Things that I get from the group are camaraderie with other people suffering from the same problems and a feeling that you are not alone. As we tend to do when we have a mental illness we feel isolated partly becuase of society stigma that does not allow one to talk about it and partly are own fault. Einstein said the moment you say I had a panic attack you are identifying your isolation becuase you are making it yours. If you can say my body is having an attack, tension, or anxiety you have taken the you out of the equation and become a member of society. I do not know if you are far enough along to know that our fear reaction of anxiety to situations we are confronted with is far in excess with the facts of the situation. For me going into a building where I have developed an association with attack. My response that is happening in my body far outweighs the threat. In fact I cannot think of a threat going in to the building other then I do not want the sensation of an attack. I think many people have said it's not the situation you fear it is the sensations.
 
One thing that also comes from the group as we recognize similar traits in or selves. Like perfectionism, imagination on fire when in a new situation, do not like change, we think that people are staring at us when we are panicky, when the majority of the time that do not know or could care less. You would be surprised how much people do not think about you, but we think about everyone else as if they think like us.
 
So if I were to give advise go for the group experience it helps you feel less isolated but if there are a few groups around then find the right one for you. That does not mean going once and deciding it is not for you, you have to give it a chance. You will also find that there is anxiety to going to a group becuase there are a lot of what if. The only thing I can say is everyone who went to the group for the first time had the same problem, you could use the challenge your thoughts sheet. Or face you fears and your fears will go away.
 
Dizzy 
Dizzy
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
The Linden Method?

Did the Lindend method that helped with your gagging suggest some form of a relaxation. This is one of the goals of this site is to find some form or relaxation response in yourself, which, is one of the pillars of stress resiliency. When you have achieved this outcome them CBT can be taken in. I dare you to try CBT during an attack. The more calm you are the more likely you will be able to use CBT or see an alternative thought if you are anxious all day then this mood colours how you see what you are doing therefore, it may be an impediment to you seeing an alternative view. The same can be said for a person in a major depressive episode he or she is unlikely to be able to see an alternative thought when all his her thought are comming from the mood of major depression.The one important thing about Clair weeks or the Lindend method or this site (just my opinion) is if you find yourself in the tools they provide and you have a belief that these tool will work for you then you are on your journey.
 
Dizzy
13 years ago 0 118 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Just a question.

 

I think the answer is the same for everyone what make us different from everyone else. The primary mechanism of a mood disorder depression or anxiety or on our web site of anxiety and panic attacks is stress. What is the primary definition of stress?  It is the belief that your abilities and coping mechanism outweigh stressful things or events of what we have to do. I think a more interesting question is why are their some people who can have panic attacks and are not bothered by them. The answer lies in the definition of a panic disorder, which is that we worry too much about the effect of another attack and therefore look for signs of them. We think that the effect of an attack impinge on our life’s so we become afraid of them. I can honestly say I still have in the back of my mind that when I have an attack and become dizzy I find it harder to work and pay attention to what I am doing. Therefore, you can see that in least for me how panic attack are perpetuated not because I think I am going to die but because I think it interferes with my cognitive functioning. The answer for me is to pay less attention to the dizziness or accept the dizziness because it is there right now (and striving for it to be gone just causes more stress) and get on with the job at hand.  

There are two kinds of suffering, one is the pain, and the other is what we say all day about the pain. If we get rid of the second suffering, which is CBT, then we lessen the effect of a panic attack.

It is also true that once we have an attack and have enough time to build up a healthy amount of cognitive distortions that this is where we get into trouble. What causes us to have an attack where someone else would not is the stress associated with the belief we cannot cope. If you think you cannot handle the job promotion then you may be predicting your outcome of the promotion before you even get there and see if you can. This belief may cause you to be overwhelmed and cause you to do poorly in the promotion and as a result, you may lose your job (if you have no stress coping mechanisms). If you had resiliency to stress and a positive outlook you may say “there are many new things in the job that I do not know how to do but I am up for the challenge” this is a different response to “I cannot do it”.

The primary mechanism to an attack is a reaction to stress rather than a response to stress. The person who does not have an attack is responding to stress the person who has an attack is reacting to stress. A reaction is an automatic thinking in our heads some of which new people on the site may not be aware of yet. This is why we are asked to look into ourselves to see what we are saying during an attack. What we typically say are reactions such as I cannot take this anymore or I hate this feeling of fear or my heart is pounding I am going to have an attack. I put the heart attack one in for new people to the site to see how relief can come from simply understanding that you will not have a heart attack (this is why some people can get relief by reading session one because they thought something bad was going to happen).

This is where your core beliefs come in, a core belief or a filter in the mind that creates our perception of the world is the thing that causes an attack. The misperceptions are found in the site and are jumping to Conclusions, Catastrophizing,  and All-or-None Thinking. I do not believe this is an exhaustive list. Also I believe it is not by accident that in the toolbox the auxiliary session deal with relationships, dispute, worry, shyness and sensitivity, role transition, grief and loss all stressful event in our lives. I also notice that the leaders are talking about stress in their information session, which I also believe is not by accident.

The way this site addresses panic attack is to expose yourself gradually to the situation to a point where you experience 80% anxiety or stress. Then wait to for a decreases to a lower level so that you can go further to leaving the house. All this is teaching you how to respond to stress of leaving the house using tools such as the relaxation response or CBT to get the negative thought out of your head. I believe that each negative thought especially if fully believed cause a charge or stress reaction.

In my support group we have a person who suffers from depression at work he gets an assignment and his immediate thought was the problem I will have because I have never done this before and as a result, he had lowered feeling. The same thought would have cause anxiety in me so through this example one can see how stress can cause depression in one person and anxiety in another. Put in simpler term it comes back to our filter of how we see the world or family or our selves.  

A word about perfectionism I think in me that I have discover the reason why I have it. The reason is that I think my work is substandard or lacking of an average person. To compensate for the insecurity I try to do things perfectly which never happens which is why perfectionism cause stress because you cannot be 100% perfect 100% of the time.

A final note all of what I said here is my perception and it may not be yours. The insights I think I have are still being filtered through my beliefs that I have. It is possible that some of my beliefs have changed and allowed me to come to some understanding of the situation at least in my case. I would ask that nobody respond to my post rather to accept Davit question and see if you can answer it for yourself. The reason is I do not believe there is one answer. You will notice that both Davit and my post are opened ended in that my post says it is the belief you cannot handle a situation I did not say what situation or situations you could not. In addition, Davit did not say what the core belief for you to have that will perpetuate an attack.

You may be wondering what is the solution to the stress response is stress resiliency. You will notice the stress resiliency that it mentions the relation as the web site does and to be a positive thinker which is a form of CBT (which the site also does or at least tries to get you to stop the false or negative beliefs).

  • The brain allows us to get to homeostasis (a balance of your stress system this is how you can cope with stress). I am not going to get medical, but I will say the brain is the part we can control to the stress reaction.
  • If we can find reward and motivation in doing things and be positive, this counteracts stress. This part is the part we can control. To be motivated you have to find what gives you life meaning in spite of your symptoms.

Pillars to  resiliency:

The relaxation response or, (self-soothing) where you show yourself that you care about you as much as you care about your family and all the other people. The site teaches you to box breath and decrease muscle tension as a response to stress rather the sallow breathing and tension, which is reactive to stress. By the way, another relaxation response is to mediate consistently so that you can call on this learned feeling in stressful situations. These are the part of the behaviour aspect or a response to stress.

Once you have some the relaxation response you can absorb the use of CBT more effectively to see alternative thought to I am overwhelmed. It is very hard to cultivate alternative thoughts during an attack because you are so consumed with it

Social support is also another thing you need to have a counter balance to stress. Can you see how isolation of yourself has contributed to your stress reaction. When you have no support how can you get relief. Social support helps mitigate against separation stressors.

To get support you have to give support. If no one could give support then we would never be able to get the support we need to counteract stress. This is a circular argument about the above where I say you need social support to get it someone has to give it.

You need to believe consciously about positive outcomes in your life. This will come after the above pillars grow in strength. Belief there is a purpose in life we will look at your day to find this.

Belief in a higher power I cannot help in this area.

Develop a positive outlook on your life. You do your best when you think positively about your future. This is the last step but can be used if you think you are on a journey of self-discovery. That everything you learn about yourself can help you to progress in to homeostasis in the future (stress resiliency).

To put this in perspective let us pretend all of what I have said is an equation:

                                                        Stress

                                                    Resiliency

If you have lot of the stress (top numerator) but a lot of resiliency (bottom denominator), you will be able to take changes in your life. If you have a lot of the above and very little on the bottom then you get into problems emotional and maybe physically. I doubt that you can too much of the bottom.
Dizzy