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limitations of CBT

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1665

Hello loves trees: So sorry you are going through this hard time. I hope you find a good counselor who has compassion and understanding. Pls. don't be afraid to open up and tell it all. It's hard to open up, I know, I am one who takes awhile. Some people can just talk away, they're like an open book. I think we sensitive people need to trust first. Maybe you need a few visits to develop that trust. I'm cheering for you, hang in there. Hang onto our hands for awhile. We are here.

Your friend, Sunny

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

Hi Davit,

I agree and share your insight about the medical profession, doctors and psychiatrists are not given the financial support from the state to provide top of the line care to patients and now that pills exist that can 'solve' some of these problems, i understand the cost benefit analysis that has been done by the people who fund the system. I know why they are quick to prescribe pills.

At the same time, I am not happy with my last dr's visit at all. I wish i would have asked her if she would be so quickly willing to go on that medication without someone actually determining what her illness or condition was. she couldn't believe i wouldn't just start taking an anti depressant without any evaluation. she basically said its my way or the highway so i chose the highway and left withouot the prescription.

My concern is that there is a trade off to taking medicaton. maybe the 3-4 days a month i fall apart will stop happening but i will have side effects to deal with the other 25 or so days of each month that right now are fairly ok, and have improved gradually over time. i am working on my negative thinking, my distractability, focus, taking care of myself, being less codepedent, listening to people, etc... all of that is improving. there are things i can do today i couldn't do 3-4 months ago.

but when my mood falls apart, it ruins a whole day or 2 days. i am dehydrated from all the crying, my head hurts from the pain, my eyes hurt, and i'm exhausted after it. during the 1 hour or so that my mood has fallen apart, i feel completelyl overwhelmed by the pain, and do not know what to do. i lie on the floor, i cry, i try to stop myself from crying, i sit and try to breathe, and i cry some more. if someone is around i am angry and irritable towards them. after about an hour it calms down inside, i start thinking less black and white, i start seeing other people point of view again, i stop thinking everyone hates me.

these episodes never come out of the blue. they are always a reaction to someone letting me down or getting dissapointing or bad news. like if a friend says they'll call to visit and then they don't, i fall apart. of if someone says something unkind to me or hurtful. or if i am not selected for a job i applied for. or coming home from a dinner where i had to smile all night , the next day i fall apart because i want those people to know what i am actaully feeling inside. lately i've started getting upset based on fear that i have a condition that will prevent me from living a good life.

one offhand comment from someone i care about can trigger me to fall apart.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Loves trees

I have a young friend who gets panic attacks when she has to eat with some one. We have had two meals together with no problems, which just proves that the trigger is not always what it seems.

Within minutes of seeing a psychiatrist she was diagnosed as bipolar and he wanted to put her on medication. I know this psychiatrist, he tried very hard to find something wrong with me other than a panic disorder. The problem with mental diseases and conditions is that there are no blood tests. CT scans can show brain damage but the only diagnostic tool that psychiatrists and psychologists have is trial and error. If you remotely look like you fit some thing they medicate you to see if it works. The same goes for telling you you are fine. if you go away and don't come back then you are fine. The other thing I dislike is their fix it with a pill attitude. It is not really their fault, it is there training and the fact they don't have time to do much else.

Therefore I prefer to see some one with more compassion and the time to really listen. I lucked out with my therapist in that she is a firm believer in CBT. and not labelling people. I firmly believe what you feel is real. I also believe that it can be dealt with so you can live as you would like. (I almost used that terrible word "normal") I also believe we cycle with good days and bad so that some times it seems like we are not getting better and you know how easy it is to believe the negative if it has been there for very long.

Keep looking for a therapist that will help and if you don't find one my offer still stands.

Your friend,

Here for you.

Davit.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

Thank you Red, Tiana and Davit. I really really appreciated your posts.

Davit, I have had a counselor for over a year now but in December she said I was going to be just fine. A week later I was not fine, so I went to a new person, a psychologist (the counselor was not a psychologist, just a counselor). Within 10 minutes of meeting me the psychologist said I was fine, and clearly not depressed.

On the one hand it is nice to have someone say "you're fine" because the part of me that wants to be fine, that wants to believe this is just grief over the loss of a family member 2 years ago clearing out of my system, well that part of me likes hearing that.

But then I come home, and a bad spell happens and I am not frustrated that people who are supposed to be helping me are assessing me as "fine". I am VERY good at concealing my inner turmoil in public. 5 minutes before walking into her office that day I was in tears and spiraling about negative thoughts and then I was calm enough in front of the psychologist for her to determine I was "fine".

I am going to keep going to new people until I find someone who can "see" what is really going on. I am not trying to intentionally conceal my issues around them but short of walking into their office for the first time in the middle of a manic episode where I am convinced my pain will never end and my life will never be good, I don't know how to find someone who says something other than "you're fine". my doctor didn't listen to me at all and wanted to give me effexor without doing any consultation with me at all. she said it would help with my depression and sleep, two symptoms i didnt have at the time. I now have to find a new doctor, hopefully one who will listen.

When I went to the psychologist I told her I was struggling with panic but even that was something i have self diagnosed because no one has given me any evaluation (except to screen for depression) never mind assessment or diagnosis of anything yet. so she talked about how to calm my panic, but really i might be manic, and i struggle with feelings of rage during my episodes. i have no idea if i have panic attacks or mania.

i am starting to think that most counselors and psychologists are no more useful to me than a book i could buy at anybookstore. so far i havve not received much help, although my counselor did help me with enforcing boundaries with family members. other than that she does a lot of talking about simply accepting things as they are. she doesn't seem skilled with helping me with my problems. i went to someone who did some sort of hypnotherapy thing to try to help me clear out my anger in a safe space. it felt good, but it certainly didn't ensure i am not dealing with episodes at home about 3-4 times a month. and it was very expensive so i am not sure how much of her services i could afford.

i admit i don't like that this site is public and wish that the forum was at least for members only or that the chat function was not disabled.

i appreciate everyone's advice. Red, I did appreciate your sharing your experience and yes, I have turned away help when I am feeling good and then the next day or week I regret it. I will have to stop doing that if I want to connect with someone to help me through this.

Davit you are the most honest with me of everyone I know right now. The hopefulness I had when I first joined this site last year is waning - I am starting to feel very worn down. and worried that i have more than just panic , or that i don't have panic at all but something that only gets worse. i am worried that life as i knew it is over because i will never be "healthy" again. not that i ever was, but having that label of being x or y disorder is hard to swallow. i am getting upset lately abouot "what is wrong with me, am i going to be able to have a life, a job, career, holidays, etc.." I am worried that if you tell me things I don't want to hear, I am not feeling that inner strength to hear them right now. but i know i can't move forward unless i do deal with the difficult realities. its not a good place to be these days. i cherish your honesty and all yoru honest words have meant a lot to me.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Loves trees.

Do you have a therapist. CBT works but sometimes you need some one to work it with. I had a very good therapist who explained things I found confusing. She also kept me on track. I no longer need her but the door is still open if I do.

I am a very complex person with complex core beliefs both negative and positive. Just because a core belief is true does not make it positive.

You will have lots to contribute as do I because you are complex too. The things that are true are hard to deal with by yourself. You often need a therapist to help with them because I'm afraid that even if you know they are true you might not accept them, which leaves you only one recourse and that is to break out in tears. (been there, still do it some times) Or accept them but not accept what you have to do about them. (this is the only site I would admit such things happened to me) (I'm glad I can)

I have been in extreme Physical pain to the point that I learned to block it so I could tolerate it.

This is a point just shy of passing out. This is pain that nothing controls. Month on month. But it is nothing compared to mental or emotional pain. No you are not mistaken the pain you feel is real and debilitating. But just like I learned to block the physical pain I also had to learn to block the mental pain too. Some times it breaks through and I feel so bad I want to die. But I have learned to handle it. I have learned to use the emotions to my benefit. There is a lot more to what I meant when I said it just doesn't matter. Emotions exist no matter what people say and they are tied to core beliefs and effect our every minute. Emotions are still there even when you sleep. They effect how you sleep, they effect how you perform and what you feel. Denying them and not feeling them builds pressure and brings on the pain you feel. Which makes it worse. Call this disorder what you want, it does not matter, what matters is with some help CBT should work. CBT is about changing your thinking. Changing it so you can function, not necessarily to what you want it to be but to what it has to be. Part of that "so what" I was talking about. I have discovered a new word and will post about it because I think it is more appropriate than "cure", It is "recovery".

Now here is what I would do: (from personal experience) If I were only having one or two days a week that I was laying on the floor crying I would take my valium (yes I still have some just in case) to clear out all the pain and let me have a clean slate to work with the next morning. And I would tell myself that that is all I am doing and it is okay. I would focus on how good and calm I felt and not how bad I'm going to feel next time it happens. And you need a surgeon that you can believe in who you will listen to when he/she tells you things you don't want to hear. You need some one to cut out the pain in increments that you can handle.

If you can not find someone you are comfortable to do this with and you want to try it, I will be your surgeon. You can always fire me, and I work for free.

Right now you need a friend that is not related, who you do not have to impress and who can understand and won't just pat your head and tell you everything is okay, because I don't think it is.

Posting this before I lose it.

Here for you,

Davit

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 659

Hello Loves Trees,

I am sorry to here you are struggling so hard lately..You were talking about feeling like you have been doing mental surgery on your self for years trying to heal yourself. You also mentioned being offered Talk therapy and or meds in your post..I have some information that I would like to share with you about myself and you can decide if it relates to you and your situation..

I went to a few therapy sessions a few years ago with a counselor at a church she was very concerned about me and referred me to a Psychiatrist for meds and he referred me to a psychologist for therapy..Anyway to make a long story short I got scared when the meds didn't work out and I ran and never went back to see the psychologist again..This is something I now regret because I have always felt that I was helped by every therapist or counselor I have talked to even if it was just for one or two visits..I always ran because of my anxiety and panic..I really wish I had stayed because I really think they could of helped me understand what I was going through..I had a lot of depression and grief issues and really was not aware of the role my panic, anxiety and ptsd played into it..Anyway what I am trying to say in this long winded post is that I think you should seriously consider taking the help that has been offered to you...I sure wish I had taken the help that was offered to me..I don't think I would of had to suffer for so long with some of the issues I had then and some of the issue I still have if I had not run away from the help that was offered to me..Having someone to guide me and to talk to about these things that was not related to me in anyway was very helpful. It was really a lot easier talking to a neutral third party for me..I was alone at this time in my life for a year and did a lot of reading and soul searching..I am not alone now but I am still soul searching.

I hope this information I have shared you about myself helps you in some way. I will be thinking about you and wondering how you are doing..

Red

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 653

Hi loves trees,

Good to hear from you again! But so sorry to hear that you are still struggling. I think you will much great advice from the folks here and here is some from me. I want to challenge your thinking about medication, just as food for thought. Many people take medication so that they can get to a higher functioning level that will allow them to then work on the CBT. It can be too hard to take on everything at once. The medication can help your pain. It really isn't the same as the example you gave. A more accurate example would be would you tell a diabetic to not take their insulin? Brain chemistry is real and does affect us! I wonder if you could talk to your family doctor about how low you are feeling?

It sounds like you have been hurting and dealing with it for many years. It will take time to get better. Do think about doing whatever it takes, exploring all options- you deserve to feel better!

Keep us posted. Be gentle with yourself.

Tiana, Health Educator

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

hello everyone,

I am sorry I have not been able to contribute much here lately. I have been struggling day to day and am unsure if what i am struggling with is panic disorder or not. one day i hope to feel well enough to contribute because i think this is an invaluable site.

CBT helped me somewhat but i do not know what to do with the things that are true. cbt seems to help with things that are not true i.e. "i am a bad parent" beliefs that can be changed to "i am a good parent". but what about realities, of in laws who don't want to ever converse with me, friends who end relationships with me, or the limiations in relationships in terms of one person being more committed than the other person. i do not know how to use CBT to address the fact that sometimes people don't want to be my friends or don't want to commit to me or don't want to get to know me.

when i realize someone doesn't want to be my friend, i end up in a ball crying intensely. this is a hard way to live.

I recall Davits post to me a few months ago pointing out the value of being able to say "so what". but i am not able to do that. at all. despite wishing i could...when i react emotionally to being hurt by a friend or family member, i get in touch with all the pain inside and honestly , and i know this isn't true, it feels like this pain is the deepest pain any human ever has ever experienced.. it feels like an entity of its own, that no one has ever helped me confront and deal with and that honestly, i do not even know if a cure for this pain exists. i do not know where this pain originated from in my past but i know my emotional needs were neglected throughout my life in my family and that today, when i get in touch with my pain i end up feeling so overwhelmed by it i am not able to function and i crave an end to the pain because it hurts so much.

emotional pain can be so searing and i have never talked to anyone who acknowledges that emotional pain can hurt as much or more than physical pain. most everyone in my life denies that emotions exist, and denies that i am in deep emotional pain. i smile a lot when i am around other people. i cry at home away from the people who need me to smile.

i am not a psychiatrist but i suspect that if pain is experienced the same way whether it is physical or emotional, that when i first felt this pain as a child, i went into shock similar to what people report when they have an accident and hurt themselves physically. they go into shock. i think i was in survival mode from ages 4- 30. i do not recall feeling my feelings very well during those years. now when i feel my pain i do have panicked feelings which is what led me to this site. but i am not even sure anymmore if i have panic disorder or not. i wake up with anxious thoughts each morning so a lot of the info here does resonate with me. but this pain honestly, it feels like a monster inside that can overpower me.

if my pain was physical, i could at least go to a doctor and get surgery. but i don't want pills to numb my emotional pain, that would be like taking tylenol forever instead of operating on an injury. so far i have been offered talk therapy and pills by people i've asked for help. what i want is to be healed. i feel like i need surgery to somehow remove the thing causing the pain. i imagine some shaman or elder somewhere knows how to do this. but i do not have acces to any real healers if they actually exist. how do i find someone who can treat me and actually heal me? given what medical doctors do for pain these days (pills) i feel hopeless. i feel i will have to carry this pain around the rest of my life, because no one knows yet how to heal it. i don't know anyone personally who has been healed. i have friends who are in pain but they are busy trying to numb it and their tactics don't work for me, except i guess i could start drinking but that leads no where good. i think that is the legacy i was born into, everyone drinks in my family to feel better. i dont. i am proud of the fact that i dont. but instead i lie on the floor crying for a day each week sometimes. that is not better really because the pain hurts. a lot. i don't know how to use CBT when i am on the floor feeling the pain so intensely my head and stomach actually hurt.

can anyone relate to this or have any advice? healing myself - that is something i think i have been trying to do for years but it feels like doing my own surgery - i have no idea what i am doing at this point and am getting more and more frustrated that i am expected to be my own surgeon.

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limitations of CBT