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15 years ago 0 51 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
    Rose, please do not be afraid to respond and I do not think that this discussion has been negative. I believe that we are a product of all the influences that have happened to us in our lives and this affects how we view things, and it is good to hear things from someone elses point of view.  I sometimes think that we are in the spot we are because we care about things. We want to do what is right even when it is difficult. We struggle with religion, because we would really like to know the answer.  We struggle with religion because we have seen to many people use it as an end to their own means, and most of us already have trust issues. As, for me, I still believe and will always believe as a Christian. I still believe in the power of prayer and I believe it is important to lead a good life( love your neighbor as yourself). I just haven't been able to find a church that fits my personal and spiritual needs, but I will keep trying.
  As for me  personally, I am doing much better. The meds are kicking in. Don't quite understand why they make such a difference in my mood but they certainly do. Been doing some research on the internet about brain chemistry and depression, very interesting. I have to say though that being involved on this group has been a very positive experience as well. The support I have felt was much needed and the way you all have handled the discussion, even on a topic like religion, in a caring and considerate way has made me feel, well safe. Thank you!
15 years ago 0 201 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
i have been wanting to respond but sitting here afraid to say anything, i didn't mean to start anything negative, it's the way i feel. i hope we don't have to be touchy on this subject or any other. don't mean to crush your faith in catholicism ralph, if that's the way you choose to go. wildcat, i agree, thinking in opposites, it's so true. and needing support. where do you find it? we are all looking for that, support and understanding, right? everybody is free to believe what they will.
15 years ago 0 3043 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Hi Ralph, Goofy, Wildcat, Rose,
 
Just read everyone's posts and see a wide degree of opinions here.  Understandably so.  Wars are fought over these sorts of issues.  I guess that's evident from my posts concerning what I believe. I don't think God is made up by the ancients and don't feel weak for my beliefs. I find myself having no faith in mankind.  If mankind is all there is than I DO want to commit suicide because man is a weak god at best.  I reject the idea of many gods because, again, because it makes them weak or limited. (I mean no offense to those who believe differently as I am just stating why I have my beliefs.)
 
I did not mean to start up the "Great Debate" but simply wanted to encourage Ralph.  I apologize to anyone I offended with my comments.  It was not my intention to offend, just to encourage Ralph. 
 
Ralph, I hope you are doing well and I did not mean to bring confusion to your doorstep.  We share our opinions readily here, which is good because it gives a rounded view on many subjects, but sometimes it sort of takes us away from the issue that you started your post for.  As I said I do not have all the answers but my belief in God is sometimes all I have and it is the saving grace many times in this depressed state I live in.  I wish I had some ideas about your job issue, but I know Goofy has given you some good advice.  She is a good person to converse with about this.  Keep us posted on how you're doing. 
 
 
 
15 years ago 0 1044 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Ralph, et al.
I don't say spiritual rather than religious because I pick my own.  I believe in the Christian God, respect others rights to believe as they choose (as I can see that others do as well).  I just don't buy into the legalistic, dogmatic aspects of religion.  I believe in a loving God, who provides a way.  I do believe it is His will in His time and His way.  And I'm inclined as a human, to want what I want and want it now.  I don't believe God (my higher power)  answers selfish prayers.  I can only ask for the strength to handle what happens today.  My prayers are answered as I am here.  However, it doesn't mean I don't have depression and anxiety out the wazoo or other co-occurring medical issues.  I do thank God that I have something I can live with.....in other words, it could be worse.  I, too, have contemplated suicide, though God and my son have provided motivation to stay on this earth, another second, another minute another day. 
 
One of the reasons that I say spiritual rather than religious (I am a member of a Methodist Church) is because of all the guilt and shame associated with religion, protestant, Catholic or whatever.  If you don't live a pristine life, you are doomed.  I don't think that this what God intended.  I don't buy into the hellfire and damnation or guilt-laden Catholicism (not to offend).  "Sit still and know that I am God"  Psalm 46:10. 
 
Ralph, I can't say I am completely satisfied with my job, I can say I am thankful that I can work and find working at this job healthier than staying at home.  Maybe that should be your measure of success rather than job satisfaction(at this time).  I am looking for the therapeutic aspects of getting better and work in any capacity is one of them for me.  
 
I hope you find some peace where ever it may be.  spirituality, work, activities, relationships, etc.  We all deserve a little peace of mind!   

15 years ago 0 456 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
hi rose,
I totally agree that people mess up the notions of the devine.  Humans are stuck thinking in terms of opposites so there is too much space for misunderstandings and ego.
 
I think that is why so many now say they are spiritual but not religious.  We tend to look at the lighter sides of the world's religions and pick and choose what we need in our lives.  We do not really stand on dogma anymore.  We grew up Roman catholic but could not really care what the pope does behind his door.  We do, at least  50 things each day that would be grounds for excommunication ... and we do not think twice of each little choice!  And still we go to communiunion at christmas and easter.  It is tradition ... part of the picking and choosing?
 
I think somewhere deep inside when humanity evolved and became self conscious ... it needed to be "bien entourer"; supported. It looked at the rest of creation and saw that nothing else reasoned quite the way that we did.  Humanity did not want to be alone on the face of the planet so it developed the notion of an original parent.  Somewhere in thye past, someone fabulous and fantastic was my ancestor.  They were strong and brave and courageous and they passed on some of these to me.  And the original story evolved ...
15 years ago 0 201 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
hi ralph (and mom of 3/goofy/wildcat) been a guinea pig this last month, not feeling well at all. can really relate, ralph. i think it is all chemicals, i really do! we are made up of that and it seems there are alot of variations. i think i may be the resident atheist - if God has a plan, it's not a very good one. it's make believe, an invisible friend for grownups. more mayhem and murder comes out of religious dogma than anything else. i was raised catholic, and reject it entirely. the vatican, the pope? give me a break! who knows what skullduggery has gone on and is still going on. look at all the disgraced ministers on tv, greedy sobs, taking advantage of people like us who are hurting and wondering why. the bible is filled with all kinds of strange stuff, the story of Lot is horrifying. raping, pillaging, taking the women and children for your own. yikes! you're not going to get the counsel you need from priests/ministers - what do they know, in their bubble? you are obviously highly intelligent, with that comes grief, because you can see the injustices and you question yourself. most people go through life avoiding that like the plauge. you're examining your life and you feel that you're coming up short-who's to say that? everybody has problems and everybody makes mistakes. without depression/anxiety you are able to bounce back - we can't bounce back without chemical intervention - i think i will end up back with the lexapro - feeling like i feel now, makes me realize that was really working. damn this experiment!    
15 years ago 0 3043 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Hi Ralph,
 
I just read your post and must say that I totally understand your point.  I can't tell you that I haven't felt the same way millions of times in my life.  And yes, I feel like it is my fault.  Either a lack of faith or failure to see the plan, I don't know.  I'm just me and find that I often miss the point.  I look back over my life and wonder just what the plan is.  Most people would never guess that I had contemplated suicide.  And, except for here, wouldn't mention it either.  I'd be one of those people that they "never saw it coming".  I am ashamed to admit that I am weak and look for a way out like that.  I am guessing that you feel that way too.  Realize that you are not the only one having those thoughts and that the thought is not a sin.  I don't know if the lack of response from clergy is a result of condemnation or a lack of really knowing how to respond online.  In any case, condemnation is the last thing you need and God is not condeming you.  Man may, but not God.  (I don't have a Catholic background although I know a bit about it.  I don't think that Clergy has any say in condemnation, they are human and there to guide but God is in charge of everything else.)  If it helps, I have problems going to Clergy also but because I had done so in the past and instead of my issues being kept confidential, they were not.  I have HUGE trust issues although I would like to have someone to trust. It elludes me for some reason.  I get burned everytime I try. (Another story)
I have always been told that God does not give us more than we can take.  Sometimes I think about that and wonder because I feel like I can't take anymore.  Then I wonder if that's true.  Maybe there is more to me than I think, maybe God knows there's more to me than that.  As I said before I do not have all the answers but I can always find someone else who is dealing with more than I am, even if mine is very bad.  I also find that I am still here battling, weaker in some ways - I am tired of the constant barrage.  Stronger in others - I have developed a sort of will to overcome.  I pray constantly, mostly to be rid of my depression and for help to carry on in spite of it, but also to ultimately be a part of God's plan and yield to that.  I've found that my plans are never very good even if they seem to work in the short term.  I can't see all of the picture and must rely on someone who can.
In closing I noticed that you wrote that you had prayed so hard the last time and felt you were abandoned.  I do understand that too, have had the same feeling many times.  But I just want to point out that in your darkest time you were pulled back.  God sent your wife as the light in the dark to give you enough clarity to go on.  That's not abandoned.  Please consider yourself very lucky to have your wife and that she loves you enough to go through all this with you. Hang in there Ralph, you are loved and God has not abandoned you.
15 years ago 0 51 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Hello All, as you can see, I had to reregister. Had some techical difficulties, it wouldn't let me post, and I didn't want to wait to get it fixed. So you see now I am"Ralph 2", but i can assure you it is the same person. I want to thank you all for your responses. It seems that I have searching for along time to find a forum like this where I can talk to people who really understand what i am going thru. Wildcat, you are very right in your analogy as to suicide confusing a foe with a friend. That is why I am so scared of a relapse at this time. Also, I too, realized that my wife did as well have so much invested in me. The thought of causing her so much pain in having to deal with what I was going to do is a great source of shame and guilt right now. It is hard for me as well, because I have tried to change so much in my life and still failed to get over the hump to wellness. I was self medicating at one time, alcohol  to the extreme, and I was able to stop. I quit smoking, drinking, ate right got excercise, went to church, basically turned my life around and yet, here I am, right back where I started from. The only factor that I stopped was the medication. Makes me wonder, is it just a chemical process? Goofy, thank you for your thoughts on work. I am still not sure what to do at this time. I worried alot of people who are close to me, and they are all encouraging me to tale my time, but  still have this urge to get out and do something. They all say take it one day at a time, but I worked for almost 30 years in retail management. A major part of my job was to always be in the future, planning, anticiapting problems and figuring out how to avoid them.trying to find small problems before they became big. I realize this type of thinking help put me in the position I am in today, but it is not easy to stop and I am not sure how to go about it. The other thing is I can't seem to find what I want to do. Since leaving retail management last year, I have taken the poatal exam, started a tax preparation class(which I didn't complete), gotten my commercial driving liscense(spent 2 months drving semi truck over the road, my wife couldn't take me being gone all the time), worked a month as a security guard and lastly worked as a cashier and day stocker at a grocery store. And this is all in just the last year, can't seem to find anything satisfying enough to stay with and now hesitant to just keep looking becuase of the amount of money for training I have already spent and am not using. What way to turn? Mother of 3, on an intellectual level I totally understand your point, on a spiritual level, I am having a real hard time. Not because you aren't right, you are. It is just that I wonder, do I have so little faith that I couldn't bear the cross i was given? You see I too, have a great deal of guilt about suicide. I was raised catholic, where suicide was considered one of the ultimate sins. Not only were you throwing away God's most precious gift,life, but also if you did the things you were supposed to do, you should have enough faith to get you thru life troubles and tribulations. Because of these feelings I have had a hard time going to a clergy member and talking to them about my problems. I have made several attempts, via email, in order to gauge how they would feel before I go in person to person and do not get a response. Their silence is condeming. i will continue to pray though it it was hard to start again, I had prayed so very hard during the last episode I had and felt he had abandoned me.  I realize that this is my thorn as well, but it is hard for me to accept it. I have spent my entire life trying to fix things, accepting that I may not be able to fix this, is very frustrating for me. One day at a time? I'm working on it. 
15 years ago 0 406 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Mom of 3,
 
Your post was very touching and uplifting.  Thanks for providing Ralph with your encouragement.  Ralph, keep up the faith, you are not alone and will get through this.  We are here for you
 
 
Karen, Health Educator
15 years ago 0 3043 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Hi Ralph,
 
I've been gone for awhile and am just catching up with everyone's posts.  Everyone has already given you quite a bit of good information and certainly alot to digest.  Wildcat and Goofy are very good at the "food for thought" and are really great people to converse with.
 
I have many of the same issues you raise, actually the replies you received has given me some things to reflect upon also.  Especially concerning therapists and medications.
 
I guess what made me want to weigh in is the struggle you're having in the spiritual realm.  I was raised Christian and have a deep rooted understanding of alot of the issues.  With my depression, which I realize I've had since childhood, there are several things that I've questioned along the way.  Although I know that God could have easily made me without these issues, He did not.  Although I know God could easily release me from depression, He does not.  I too have considered suicide many times, which I consider a sin and probably the one thing that keeps me from commiting it.  I realize that once done I can't ever ask for forgiveness - it's over.
 
It is the apostle Paul that I relate to most.  Not in that he was incredibly intelligent and determined, although I wish I could say that. It is that he alludes to a "thorn in the side" that even though he had prayed for God to relieve him of, he did not.  The scriptures do not say what that "thorn" was and I don't believe we were meant to know.  Especially since everyone's "thorn" is different.  I often think that without the thorn we would be able to do so much more, but then I would be doing it and not God working through me.  I would think I'm just that good and I would take credit.  Perhaps Paul realized this and it is what made him able to live with his "thorn" although I don't think he ever stopped looking for a way to rid himself or minimize that "thorn".
I relate to this.  Depression is my thorn, my cross to bear.  It makes me in need of God's help and reminds me that there are things that I can't accomplish without God's help due to this thorn.  If it is accomplished I must give God the thanks and not pat myself on the back.  Perhaps this view is simplistic but it does help me to be more content that I have the battle to fight.  It does not make me not want to fight the battle however.  I HATE my depression, I call it my demon.  If I could banish it I would, but given that it is not something that I can always choose not to have I must learn to live in spite of it.  This is why I am here.  I accept it as part of God's plan, it is bigger than I and only a part of something too big for me to see.  And so I must learn to trust - hummm, one of my biggest issues.  I hope you're able to see where I'm going with this Ralph.  No, I don't have all the answers but have found greater faith that God does through these things I suffer.
Hang in there Ralph, God sent your wife to you at a very low time, He has a plan.

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