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100 days today

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1009

Well, now that we've gotten past the pleasantries and the fan-fare......

......how are you doing a77734?

How do see the holiday season working out for you? Is it a big trigger situation?

All the best,

Dave

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1562

Dave,

I agree we both have been going back and forth and getting no where. About not expressing the benefits in a positive light, I am not sure about it. Its all the individuals state of mind. I don't wish to brag, but I have to share an email response from a recent acquaintance who received my email and listened to the link that I sent him.

WOW........... Just finished Chris Raymer CD ..... what encouragement, powerful, will change my journey forever.... my spiritual awakening will be dated today.... forget my 10 month chip.

Going to chair my 7am meeting this morning so better close. Going to Woodstock AA convention at Lake Lanier throughout this weekend (been paid for weeks). Repeat..........what a CD

Thank you, Bill

This is what I do with all the people I have come across in recovery. Share what worked for me and once in a while I get somebody that gets excited. Identification of the problem is very important then comes recovery, thats why I encourage people to read the big book or listen to one of the links on the blog. If it clicks good, if not thats fine too.

Good luck.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1009

"Had you expressed the benefits of the program perhaps people may be more receptive of it....."

Actually that's not entirely accurate. Had you expressed the benefits of the program to me, in a positive light, i may be more receptive to it. The bottom line is you are very passionate about the program and the benefits you've experienced and you want to share that with those who are suffering and need a way out, as do I want to share what I have learned and do the same. Perhaps we should focus on the support of others rather than use this as a forum for contrary opinions.

All the best,

Dave

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1009

Foxman, I work through my own version of moving past this challenge, call it my own version of working my own steps. I'm happy that it's worked for you and millions of others. That's a truly nice thing.

Can we please stop this now because nothing positive can come of this exchange and it's detracting from the entire purpose of this site. It's exactly this type of attitude that turned me off of the AA program in the first place and you've done an outstanding job of validating what I had discovered in the first place. I had viewed it with an open mind when I first embarked on this journey and it was exactly this type of attitude that pushed me away. Had you expressed the benefits of the program perhaps people may be more receptive of it.

All the best and good luck with your program,

Dave

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1562

You're right, a lot of things about the program make no sense to me.

Well it makes sense to me and million others. And I believe if you are not working the 12 steps, you only have opinion about it no matter what you do. Acquiring knowledge is just knowledge. Again I repeat, If i don't have a working knowledge of something, I will just not comment about it. its disrespectful like you say.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1009

"Let me ask you this. So you think you have more knowledge of the working of the 12 steps just by reading the book?"

When have I ever said I have more knowledge than the next person? We're all entitled to form our own conclusions about what we read, that is how we learn. The 12 steps have worked for you and that is great. I don't think it's in anyones best interest in getting into a deep discussion about the pro's and con's of the AA program. People should form their own individual opinions about it.

Do you have a deep understanding on how a person develops habits and self-perceptions based on their self-talk and repetitive messaging? Do you understand the mechanics of how a person learns and the different components of the brain and the influence they have on each other?

I have said over and over that people are free to discover what mode of recovery works best for them and, if AA is that mode, then go for it. I don't have to justify my view to you yet you keep pushing the topic, trying get me to engage in why I'm not the biggest fan of the program. The bottom line is the vast majority of people recover on their own once the recognition of the problem is brought to the surface. As to the definitions of drinking styles that AA has come up with, I agree with what TS wrote below in her rather astute post on the subject.

The problem here is that I have a difference of opinion with those that are passionate about the program and you can't accept that. Anything I say seems to be perceived by you to be a "cheap shot" and you don't like it if someone challenges you with a view or fact that is contrary to the program. You're right, a lot of things about the program make no sense to me. That's not because I didn't give them their due consideration with an open mind. They just violate a lot of factual psychological principles that are agreed upon by the discipline. But, hey, if they work for you then stick to them. That is entirely your right as a free-thinking individual.

I've researched the program form both sides, both positive and negative and listened to both sides with an open mind to draw my conclusions. In fact, I just had an email from a friend who is in AA, 8 years sobriety, who has had his spiritual transformation, and he shares his ideas with me on the steps, why they work, and he is entirely ok with me asking questions and challenging him on the topic. He is very caring and respectful of our discussions and never gets his cockles up when I don't agree. He's pu

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1562

Let me ask you this. So you think you have more knowledge of the working of the 12 steps just by reading the book? Huge difference. People who understand and identify with what is written there.

And so do you understand the the different categories of drinkers? A moderate drinker, Hard Drinkder and an alcoholic. If you don't, then these traditions will make no sense to you. And you are bound to take a cheap shot at the traditions.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1009

Jake, once again your comments, like Foxman's are filtered through the lens on the AA dogma. Now you suggest I don't like God.

Yes, giving a rest is a good idea, as I said sometime ago when I said "Let it go". If you expect me to not respond to what amount to insults, condescending comments, and fictitious assertions, well forget it.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1009

On another note, and sticking to the original purpose of this thread.....

How are you doing a77734? No doubt you are looking forward to the retreat. Do you find the holidays to be a big trigger for you?

All the best,

Dave

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1009

I said "I hope it's not just a 12 step program".

Why do you even have to come up with a statement?......."

This has been an interesting discussion so I thought I would pop open my copy of the 12 steps and 12 traditions and look at it with an open mind.....Since you are constantly quoting from the Big Book and Step 12 steps I thought I'll do the same....from Tradition 1, page 130:

“The AA member has to conform to principles of recovery. His life actually depends on the obedience to spiritual principles (the 12 steps). If he deviates too far the penalty is swift and sure; he sickens and dies. At first he goes along because he must, but later he discovers a way of life he really wants to live. Moreover, he finds he cannot keep this priceless gift unless he gives it away. Neither he nor anybody else can survive unless he carries the AA message….."

While this may be some peoples view on recovery, and they are rightly entitled to it, I believe people can actually resolve this problem of alcohol abuse, recover, and move on with their life. It's not really a gift unless you are allowed to keep it, unconditionally. If I can help someone personally move past this problem that's great. I gave them my time, my knowledge, and an unconditional acceptance (much like you do). I sincerely hope they can develop the self-understading and self-efficacy to see that this chapter in their life is behind them and they don't have to be slave to alcohol. The above statement from Tradition 1 has so many extreme views, requirements, and consequences it's really difficult to see that as being recovered or free. Maybe someone does't want to stay in AA for the rest of their natural life? Sorry, but I just don't see it. It seems more a case of conditions given unconditionally.

"Are you scared that people will try AA? Look inside that fear."

Once again, you try to ascribe a view onto me that simply doesn't exist. People are free to do as they wish, and i'll repeat it for the millionth time: IF YOU WANT TO TRY AA GO FOR IT! Use what works for you. I went, interacted with people (still do actually) from people with AA and decided for myself the program didn't speak to me. I will say one thing though...that above quote form the 12 Traditions? Programming those ideas into ones subconscious seems like a way to ensure an epic relapse. Just saying'

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