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12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1022

can you describe this "someone of value"? When you look for him what do you see... or hope to see?

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 223

Oh, Lord...what do I want my life to be like? I knew if I hung around here long enough that somebody would ask me a question like that

The answer to that is that I just don’t know to any degree of specificity, and can only express it in negative terms, i.e. what I don’t want.

I don’t want to be trapped inside this body and face that I hate, I don’t want to be trapped inside this personality that I hate.

That’s it, really. I feel like there is someone of value somewhere inside, but God – or whoever/whatever – has played some cruel joke by packaging my soul inside this ridiculous creature.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1022

Pete, what do you want your life to be like?

Jonie and Vincenza... thanks for adding valuable insight to the discussion. As Pete says... it sure is a brain bender... except that once you get round the bend it all becomes much simpler and clearer! Yes?

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 223

Wow...this thread is becoming a brain-bender. Thanks, ~m and Jonie, for your thought-provoking posts. Obviously my 'understanding' of CBT is not the only way to see this therapeutic model. I am glad to hear it is helping you.

I, however, am a curmudgeonly, somewhat cynical, 50 year-old Englishman. I'm depressed about my present life and about my past - I'm not thinking about the future. As you say, Jonie, it is unpredictable, things change. But, right now I am unhappy. I look around me and that is a logical, rational response to my situation. For me, tweaking thoughts around ain't gonna change the basic facts of my life.

Yes, things will change, of course they will, and if they change for the better then maybe I won't be unhappy any more. If they change for the worse or stay the same, well then I shall remain miserable. Who knows? As you rightly say, there is no control. So, I certainly accept the idea that change may be for the better, but until that happens I shall be unhappy in the here and now.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 5

I don't think CBT is about creating 'positive' thinking. I think using the term 'positive' is really misleading. CBT is about thinking in a more logical and rational way.

For example, believing a statement like 'things are bad now and have been for whatever amount of time, this is proof that things will never change for me'. This is not a logical thought at all. Can you say something like, 'Jane lived at this address for 20 years, therefore that will never change and she will always continue to live there.'? That is the exact same reasoning, yet it's obvious that this isn't true at all. Something unexpected might happen to Jane, things may change. This also can apply to our own situations with depression. It's just difficult to acknowledge the basic fact of life that things change because we filter things to fit our negative assumptions. It's incredibly uncomfortable to consider things that conflict with things we've believed for a long time, therefore we dismiss them as being untrue because of the discomfort we feel. If you've believed for a long time that you're doomed to be depressed for the rest of your life, anything that conflicts with that is going to feel very strange and unnatural to you.

From what I've understood from CBT, you identify that a statement like that is generalising, predicting the future, emotional reasoning. You might replace it with something more logical and free of these thinking distortions, such as, 'I can't make accurate predictions about future based on the past. Life is unpredictable, no matter how much we try to control it. While there's a possibility that things will not change, there is also a real possibility that it will'. Maybe this is a bit different from the CBT other people have been taught, but I've been taught that it's okay and sometimes even important to acknowledge the negative when creating alternative thoughts, just as long as you take special care not to exaggerate it, and to also acknowledge the positive as well. That way, the new thought is more realistic and feels more genuine.

Anyway, I hope that helps!

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1853

Great discussion and insight on this thread - thanks to everyone for sharing from your heart!

It's wonderful to hear that this forum is a source of comfort for many. We are here to learn from each other and support each other on this life journey full of ups and downs.

~m, I especially like the quote you posted earlier: "Let everything you do today ... be enough" ... perhaps tweek it a bit to read "Let everything you are today ... be enough."

It is a good reminder for all of us...

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1022

I guess my understanding of CBT is somewhat different than yours Pete... hmmm, how to explain? All this thinking is making my brain hurt

I like the challenge though. This discussion is really helping me better understand what I have learned this past year and what has been useful... and what has not.

I have to agree that the model you have been given is awful. If that were my understanding of CBT... I would run in the opposite direction, because it would seem to negate my reality. It would be like saying my experience of my life is false. My experiences are my experiences and no pdoc or counselor can tell me none of it happened. Some have tried. Damage was done. But I finally learned to trust myself, so I moved on until I found help from ppl respectful of my experience of myself and my life.

The CBT that is taught here (in my opinion) does not equate negative thoughts with false thoughts. It's about changing perspective. It's about lessening the power of the negative in our lives... quieting those thoughts... making room for the positive... and then being given the tools to recognize the positive and invite it in. That's where the empowerment comes in to challenge depression. Let me give an example of what I'm talking about.

When I was young, I lived in a city that was destroyed by a massive earthquake. My school was flattened. Classmates died. By virtue of my birth as a US citizen, I was whisked to safety in the states and did not return for some months. This is fact. I had what today would be called survivors' guilt, out of which developed the core belief that I did not deserve to be alive. This is a very simplified version of this part of my story.... nevertheless, I spent most of my life wishing I were dead. I didn't know that this experience was the source of so much guilt. It wasn't until I used the CBT tools taught here and started pealing back the layers that my perspective changed. As an adult person, I recognized the "survivor guilt" aspect (negative perception = I should be dead) based on factual experience (my friends died). The guilt that I carried was something that needed to be let go. I had no control over the earthquake, (positive perception = grief needed to replace the guilt.) Realizing that allowed me to forgive myself, grieve the losses, and move out from under the oppression those thoughts had been (unconsciously) causing.

I hope I haven't further confused the issue. It is hard to explain this stuff. I can only share what I know and that the relief I felt from processing this incident lifted a very, very heavy weight from my shoulders... from my life... which has given me the strength and incentive to challenge more and more of my core beliefs. Finding them is still tough.... but mostly I can go after them with courage and confidence... not fear and desperation.

My hope is that other members may experience this same freedom...

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 223

Where CBT sticks in my throat is its model of depression as it has been presented to me by a clinical psychologist and a psychotherapist/counsellor. I may have completely misunderstood, of course. CBT seems to posit that I have a core of 'negative' beliefs, self-images and assumptions about myself, other people and the world. And if I challenge and examine these negative thoughts, they will turn out to be distorted and mistaken and I will gradually be able to abandon them, thus starving my depression to death as its basis is removed. Sorry, but I just do not feel that my mnd and emotions work in this way.

What I choose to name as my depression springs from the real, solid facts of my life. I can look around me, look at my shabby home, my worn features, my bank balance, my successful and socially competent contemporaries.....these things cannot be denied or challenged, they are solid and indisputable. I can look at my past actions, the omissions and mistakes, the laziness and lack of assertion, the episodes of pain. This is all real, what use to look at it closer?

Why, I ask myself, should the 'negative' beliefs turn out to be false, but not the 'positive' ones that I hold? What if I examine my 'negative' beliefs and find them to be well-founded and true (which I am certain is actually the case)? Where does that leave me? More depressed, that's where.

So. In a nutshell, that's why I've gained little of value from CBT. I can't buy into a therapy that has a central tenet I can't apply to my own situation.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1022

Pete, I'm glad that you are able to find support and understanding here. I love that about the forums. I'm really saddened for you that in trying to do the CBT work you were just left feeling discouraged and like you were too stupid to get it. Clearly you are not stupid... as evidenced by your writing and thoughtful commentary. Besides, it has been my observation that most of the members that come here are extremely intelligent and self-aware. It's the depression that convinces us otherwise.

I too felt really stupid and inadequate when I started the program. I just didn't get it. I did not understand how to do the homework and was frustrated at not being able to get it "right." I re-read lesson one about 8 times and finally just had to give up for awhile. I came back a month later and tried again. Still didn't get it... but decided to just read through the entire program without doing the homework (even though they say it is best to do one lesson at a time).

Finally, I was desperate enough to allow myself to start from the beginning afresh and just do the darn homework in a less than perfect (or even close to "right" way). I think that was my first step toward positivity...

I write this, not so much to convince you to try again, but to confirm that not being able to apply these principles right away (or even understand them) is not a sign of stupidity or "deviance". I hope you have kicked those terms out of any description of yourself based on your experience with CBT.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 223

Hi ~m,

In answer to your question - I post here because I find the forums supportive and I feel less alone this way. I tried the program but did not find it helpful, but that doesn't stop me finding something good here.

Hi could be more,

Looks like we see things in much the same way. I was feeling like a deviant because I can't get anything from the CBT approach - your post makes me feel better about that.

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