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Forgiveness and the burden of toxicity which accompanies not learning to forgive

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Forgiveness and the burden of toxicity which accompanies not learning to forgive

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

Thanks for this Davit. Today I am just too emotionally worn and frustrated to read about dissociation online. I have no therapist anymore and don't know where to find a good one or if there are any here. I do not know if I can do the work I need to do re: dissociation by myself. So i am scared.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

loves trees.

More than just PTSD can cause a faulty memory it seems but most of the time it is trauma that sets it off. Trust is one of these things. Say as a young person you put all your heart into a friendship as only the young can and that person dies. You feel cheated. Less so if they just move away. Later in life similar things happen with say one very traumatic event that you can't remember. Trauma causes dissociation as a survival thing. This is on the internet under dissociation. The memory is still there but you can not use it because the pathways from it to other parts of your mind are not connected. One of these connections that is necessary is to emotions. When you try to access it there is a blank space. Some times you try to fill it in. Most times because you are in a negative frame of mind you try to fill it with something negative. Some times you are successful. Like a soldier that keeps reliving things he can only imagine happened because he can not access memory to know if they did for sure. This filling in the inaccessible memory with negative memories conditions a person to think this way when a trigger calls for a thought to manage it and form a reaction. This is where CBT can help by challenging the thought and coming up with something positive to replace the negative thought that is controlling the reaction. Since the reaction gets recycled to the thought memory that controlled it as well as the trigger a positive reaction sets up the next thought that happens from a trigger to be positive and the reaction to be positive and the recycled thoughts to be positive also. But it takes work to bury the negative thoughts that dictate the reaction. It can be done though. There is a work sheet somewhere on the internet on how to do this. I can't remember exactly where though.

This is how the panic triangle works as explained to me by my therapist. Unfortunately I can not find it on the internet. It may be under a different name. It does explain why negative thought breeds negative thought and vice versa. It also explains why we go round and round with a thought we don't want.

I wish I could post the picture on here. I can put it on as an ativar but it is too small to read.

Davit.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

Hi Davit,

When I re-read attachment theory recently it was hard to read, yes. Hard to accept that I did not experience "normal" attachment. Even though people don't like the word "normal" in general, I will use "normal" here because there are attachments that are meant to form so we can get our needs met and develop healthy.

I cannot go back in time. I have issues that are based in attachment issues that occured when I was very young. My last therapist took advantage of me in regards to my understanding around trust and attachment. I did not see it coming. I sitll get angry when I think about it. Like anyone, I do not want it to happen again.

can you talk more about this idea of "a faulty member trying to use information that is not there". That resonates for me. I am reading a book right now about someone who in adulthood found a way out of the pain and this person in adult hood lucked out with some people she could experience healthy attachments with. I am not so lucky yet. If I can experience healhty friendships etc.. that would go a long way to my healing.

Your post has given me something to think about and feel through. A lot is missing and it is very frustrating.

The way I relate ot people seems to almost always end up looking very naive in hindsight. like a child. who doesn't yet realize people can lie and take advantage or find pleasure in being passive aggressive. when ever people are like that to me, I berate myself for trusting them.

Hugs4u thank you for the post. I understand about life getting busy. It is nice to see you here.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 4027

Loves trees,

I read your posts, and am "listening" too. Life has taken over recently, so I can' barely log on, let alone post anything. With these conditions, I'm sure that happens to others too.

I'd rather not post anything if I didn't think about it, but maybe that's just me

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

loves trees.

CBT is a process, a tool, a way of doing something. It can only work if you can absorb it and use it. You are not alone in this. At least you are still searching. I think and this is just my thought but it did help me since I took a bit of additional help to be able to use CBT. I think you need to understand things like dissociation that explain why some things are not accessible or when they are they are incomplete so they are not usable. I was lucky to have a very good therapist who fed me far more information than the average person needs to know. The lights started to come on and things started to make sense. Understanding core beliefs was important. Understanding what happens with trauma was another. Attachment theory was scary to read but it too explained why people were the way they were. And finally she said that yes there are people that are truly evil. Some times it is hard to distinguish them and we seldom come across them but they do exist.

For most people that CBT works for all they need to do is change negative to positive.

For others it is more complicated. They need to change thought patterns. It is like losing some one out of your life. Every thing changes. It is like moving. Everything changes. But trauma is worse. Everything changes but since it is blocked you don't know what changed. A two year old has a limited amount of experience to base life on and that is okay because that is all it needs at that age. An adult needs more and is expected to have more. I can see where if trauma is blocking the information needed by an adult that life would be very frustrated. But a two year old can learn and does and what it learns dictates how it will grow up. An adult though that has a fractured memory or a faulty one keeps trying to use information that is not there. This is usually the case with PTSD. In some cases this can be fixed by relearning.

Much like moving to a new town and a new culture. Learning all over and leaving the past behind. I had to do this. I had to build whole new thought patterns. Some times the old ones bleed through and for a while I am in trouble. It has been five or more years doing this but it did work. The old negative core beliefs are still there and some times an event will bring them back. I'm getting better at shooting them down. I had to learn why I was the way I was, you might have to do that to. Good luck in your search for an answer and I truly hope you find one so that CBT can work for you too.

Davit.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

JDoe, thanks for the post. It helped to know someone is listening :)

Davit, thanks for your post here too. My mind knows that the people who hurt me were unable to be better because of their own traumas and reasons, but my mind does not run the show....not all the way anyways.

I carry around a part of me that does not understand the trauma and cannot understand it because that part of me is the age i was when it happened. I did not used to believe in that sort of idea that we have this "inner child" but my inner child has tried to be heard so badly in the last few years that even though I like to think of myself as very rational and science minded and I don't personally find much solace in spiritual based ideas taken on faith, I "feel" that inner child who keeps asking "why" and my adult self responds and it isn't 'clicking'. At least that is what I am interpreting in trying to understsand why i am 'stuck" and why therapy has not worked.

the therapists keep talking to the adult part of me, my mind. my mind gets it. but again, it doesn't run the whole show. if all we were was rational, well we'd have a lot less problems on the one hand but we wouldn't be expressive or creative would we ?

I have experienced regression in the sense that my emotions are sometimes expressed the way a frustrated 2 year old expresses their emotions. I do believe in healing but so far have not found all the pieces to the puzzle as to how to do that. 2 year olds are not very good at forgiveness. it is a more complex process that we humans develop later on. I am not making excuses for myself at all, just trying to find a way for me to eventually forgive all and be free.

As you know i have been posting about the limitations of CBT for a while. Not sure if these comments are tootally welcome on this forum but I do want to say that CBT can help a lot, and has helped me to think less negatively. but there are limitations I am finding and want those to be shared so I / we can all move along together towards more and more freedom! :)

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Physical abuse is a tougher one than mental to forgive and I'm not sure it should be if it was intentional. As for retaliation, if it gives closure I can not say it is wrong either. When we were pre school kids my brother used to beat the crap out of me. He still did till I was in my early teens and threatened to shoot him. I have never ever again pointed a gun in the direction of anyone even empty. It scared me more than him. I have since forgiven him but I don't know if he ever forgave himself. He recognizes it now. It is the past and can't be changed but it can be closed by forgiveness. As for the mental, since it was ongoing and I was continually forgiving him I had to end our relationship. I still forgave him and got on with my life. Some times along with forgiving I also feel sorry for some one because of the way they are, cruel or stupid. I'm also so glad I am not like them, and sometimes that is enough to make it possible to forgive. Some times you have to walk in their shoes first. Things are not always cut and dried. Again remember forgiveness is something you do for you not so much them. Again it is like so much of the cure for anxiety, it is taking back control. Not in an aggressive way but certainly assertive.

Davit.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 2508

Loves trees,

I have been reading your posts and listening..I want let you to know that your posts are not confusing things for me here.

Actually I can relate to a lot of what you are saying..I have not been able to forgive people that have abused me and I am not sure if I ever will..One thing I do know is that the things that have been done to me still hurt me and are part of the reason I am the way I am..It has been easier for me now that they have passed on, but the pain is still there..Not all the time but it still does surface unexpectedly and affects my emotional state..I just wanted to let you know that I also have a hard time with my emotions...I have been working on the program in the depression center. It's one of the sister sites to this one and it is helping me to understand myself and my emotions better..I just wanted to let you know there is more help here on this site..I wasn't sure if you knew about the sister site or if you have taken a look at it yet..

It this a option that you might want to consider? If so you just might me see me over there bloging and such..

I hope this helps you in some way...

Red.....

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

What Sunny123 describes in this thread is what I am unable to do. Its been years and I do not feel any feelings lessening. It might be my condition, I might be unable to stop feeling the same intense pain I felt years ago because of the things my brain does with emotions. I don't want to take a pill to stop the pain but I guess I might have to. Its no fun living with the same pain and it never lessens. Time is not healing anything for me.

12 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

Im just sad. I really needed a protector. And I never got one. I needed an advocate. I still do sometimes. I am tired. I've been looking for help my whole life and very actively for the last year, and nothing has helped so far. It is being a person who cannot be fixed and not being able to fix yourself either. It leads to a lot of frustration. If I could not fix my own car people wouldn't blame me but I can't fix my mind but I am continually blamed or just ignored.

I don't tink about retaliation. I just think about what could have been. I grieve that I lost these people that I needed. I do not know if they neglected me intentionally or not. I do not know if I'll ever know. I think that knowing would help to give me closure. I have tried for 2 years to just decide on a reality - to tell myself they didn't do it intentionally (Because that is more likely and more compassionate) but the trick doens't work. I still end up wonding how they could hurt me and how to forgive.

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Forgiveness and the burden of toxicity which accompanies not learning to forgive