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13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 538

hi Loves-Trees,

I've been reading alot of your posts, and I really feel for you. It sounds like your life is very difficult. You sound in pain.

You are so intune and smart about your mental health, and Davit has supplied you with all sorts of information about meds to take to your doctor.... you are a fighter for sure...but is your battle never ending?

when I first started on my SSRI last year... I was at my rock-bottom. I was desperate to help myself change. I've had GAD for over 20 years.(my diagnosis) ..I was really terrified of taking any medication , but I finally accepted that I need help. I didnt know what to expect at first...or if the SSRI would even work...but I was willing to try and if needed, experiment to find out which, if any, medication would be right for me. I lucked out though, and am so happy .....the change in my thoughts, mood fluctuations... has been , well, like a miracle to me. And I don't feel drugged..just a heck of a lot happier. Its allowed me to really think and concentrate on the CBT program...I had so many fears/phobias...but I just booked a room in San Fransisco when hubby is home in Apr .on his break....this time last yearI couldnt hardly leave the house with out anxiety. I couldnt even go to a grocery store by myself.... There are risks in everything we do in life. Sometimes we have to give up control, and accept help ..in various forms.

anyhow, I just hate to see you suffering.. you deserve better out of your life. I'm going to look up zentangling now too.

here for you,

Juanita

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

loves trees

Since you have not stated flat out absolutely that you would not take a drug if it did not have side effects I will give you two to look up. Both have very little side effect and both can be stopped without tapering so if you did not like them you could just stop, or stop for a day or two.

Again here I have to say for the sake of the site rules that you need to talk to a doctor about this.

But you have to have some where to start. The third is slower acting but also easy to stop without rebound. Rebounding back to a before state is the worst side effect of most drugs which is why people stay on them not because they are actually addictive.

First, Valium is the oldest and safest benzodiazepene. In small amounts it works as a muscle relaxant and a sleep aid. It also reduces the information overload with out leaving that fogged in feeling. It has a twelve hour half life. It would allow you to do things you cancel if you took it two hours before. It isn't a miracle, just an aid.

Second Trimipramine or imipramine. This is a mood stabilizer class of antidepressant. It does not have the horrible two week starting period. It is also a mild pain reliever. It works very well for me when I get sad or blue. Side effects are a dry mouth and a tendency to sleep longer than wanted. Best taken at supper time. People do use it during the day without it making them drowsy. It does not work on seratonin though.

Third is buspar a non benzo anti anxiety. It needs to be taken on a constant basis to work and is considered safe.

The first two are supposed to be taken on a regular basis. What is regular? For some one like me who is very sensitive to them, every second or third day when I need them would be considered regular.

I only give you these because they are safe to take, easy to quit and I think you should try something long enough to get you stable enough to do the CBT. And you need some names to take to a Doctor. I also feel you are capable of using them as an adjunct to CBT.

I also think you need to rule out a deficiency of the chemicals these work on. They will also give you a clearer mind to think on what you want to do.

I don't like to see you in pain and since we suffer from some similarities these might help. Only real difference between some of our emotions is that I have had longer to learn to control them. Take this from a guy who is quite capable of getting sad and crying right out of the blue.

Difference is I have learned control and acceptance. Some times emotions belong there, just not as long as they stay though.

I went from being a total wreck without SSRIs because I can not take them. Having a therapist to explain things was probably the biggest breakthrough I had. What ever you do you still need to do CBT and this program is the best way to do it. What ever you decide, I am still your friend and still here for you and will be till you are better or don't need me to be there for you.

Here for you (forever)

Davit

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

Hi Davit,

I am going to give more information here because I am really starting to develop anxiety about not knowing what i "have" and what i am dealing with. you are right, knowing what i am dealing with would be helpful at this point and provide some relief even if it is something i'll have the rest of my life . although with research into neuroplasticity i do believe medicine will find that we can reverse many things we thought were not reversible. but that might be years from now. anyways i digress...

what i deal with are 3-4 days of getting through the day without feeling an emotion so intensely i am crying for an hour or more, and then whammo, i start thinking about something sad (and again, i may not be doing near enough to address the grieving process of losing several people close to me over the last few years) and it pulls me under for like 3-4 hours of crying at a time. and lots of really sad all or nothing thoughts during that episode where i truly believe i will never have friends again, etc...

the person who is with me watching all of this of course feels helpless and wants me to stop suffering this each week as well. i understand that , and i understand my partner may be very impatient and maybe even more anxious than me at this point in terms of feeling confident i / we can ever have anything beyond this chaos of cancelling plans at the last minute due to my / our upsets. because once i am upset, my partner gets upset too and then the whole day is gone as we are both completely drained by the emotions and anxiety and fear. its been exhausting. if there was a pill that had few to no side effects or dependency concerns and actually worked to stop all of this for me, i would take it in a heart beat. but no such pill exists. they all have side effects and everything i read indicates that i'll have improvement in some areas, and then my own personal adjustment to the pills will be what I suffer through. others around me won't be as negatively impacted by my moods anymore. a pill that means I don't cry every weekend but can't sleep properly is very attractive to a partner who has had most weekends ruined lately due to my emotions. i remain unconvinced that medication is going to solve my / our problems and that I can't get better without medication. But that is becuase i am feeling well today. Tomorrow if I am in the middle of an episode of crying, I am going to woonder if I can do it without medication.

I definitely need to get some grief counselling because when i get upset, a lot of emotions flood out based on past events that I didn't grieve at the time. grieving wasn't done in my family of origin. and that is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of how little emotions mattered when i was growing up. a lot of the time i feel i am learning how to emote for the first time in my life.

i know a lot of people whose parents got divorced for example. for me now, it is unfathomable that i was not allowed to ever talk about how that made me feel. and yet that is what i endured. ithought it was normal not to ever emote and to keep everything mucky inside. all the time. now it feels like the floodgates are open after years of being in survival mode.

i go into fight or flight mode when someone is angry with me, i feel a pressure inside to decide whether to ever see them again. that speaks to a bigger issue than just needing grief counseling.

this post didn't have a logical beginning middle and end. as you can see i am grasping the air these days trying to figure out what is wrong with me. mabye i just need to embrace cbt better. I admit I gave up documenting my negative thoughts once I started to get discouraged that I need medication and my impatience and that of my partner has directed a lot of me going to doctors trying to figure out what to do. I don't fit the exact profile for GAD or any other anxiety disorder so i have become suspicious. what do i really have? my partner says my episodes don't look like panic attacks as they are described here and online. I don't lose touch with reality. I am always crying during them, I am always sad and thinking all or nothing and catastrophically, and if provoked while in the middle of an episode, I get very angry. if not provoked, I havn't been getting angry lately, just sad and hopeless feeling. And this is happening once a week. which is exhausting. in an ideal world i suppose a doctor would observe me during an episode and determine if i am having manic or panic.

that rhyme at the end there made me smile to myself so i am going to end this here. thank you so much for listening. you are a candle in my storm.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

loves trees

The way SSRIs and Tricyclics work is by replacing chemicals you do not have enough of in the process they mellow you out and reduce the anxiety. They are safe in them self and are not addictive but you can become dependent. The difference is addiction is a chemical change, dependence is a mental one. Therefore you have no worry about becoming an addict. Ativan on the other hand does cause changes chemically and it is possible to become addicted as I was. But it to can be reversed. My one concern with medication is that some doctors start you off too high. The other one is that since there are no lab tests it takes a while to find the right one.

Bipolar is a tough call because it varies so much in intensity. Mood swings are normal in most of us. In bipolar they are uncontrollable without medication. A bipolar person in the manic phase thinks everything is fine although to those around them they are not. In the depressed phase they think they are just in need of a little rest and don't notice they are sleeping excessive and getting nothing done. And it doesn't matter to them. Not that much different from the mood swings we normally get except they can not bull through it, they have to ride it out. I still do not think you are bipolar. In the Bipolar antidepressants have to be balanced because they definitely can make it worse. I have a friend who has just gone from the depressed sleeping all day phase to the manic big plans phase and has had to change medication. Personally and you have to remember these are just my impressions I think you are looking for a name to put on your condition for the comfort it gives. It would give you something to work with.

Remember the definition of anxiety. Excess dwelling on things of a negative nature. Like you said what you have gone through in the last two years would do this to anyone.

By the way your description of codependent is opposite to what it is. What you describe is over attentive and over caring to the extent of neglecting yourself. The codependent person takes on other peoples pain because they feel that that person is incapable of taking care of them self or doing it right. Codependent's are very controlling. You may well have some codependent people sucking you dry unintentionally.

According to my therapist you can do the whole CBT program med free, some people do, just be prepared for it to take longer. The one instance where it can not be is if the panic is caused by medication side effects or actual mental disease such as bipolar.

Depression is far stronger than just having the blues for an extended period of time. I get the blues bad but have been tested a few times by different psychiatrists and come up clean. I was even used once as a teaching aid for a student to see if she could tell the difference.

Again and this is just my impression, I think you are too impatient. It takes time but it does work. There is so much unpleasantness in the world that it is hard to find much positive to work with. Two things to remember. There are pleasant things if you look for them and the unpleasant ones are not your fault you can only do your part to not make them worse.

Here for you,

Davit

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

Thanks everyone.

m I will definitely look up Zentangling today.

I am really scared today because I had another bad weekend of mood swings and my doctor wanted to give me an anti depressant but I have read up on it and if i am bipolar it might actually make things worse. I do'nt know what to do. I have good days and bad days and the bad days I get really depressed about things in my life that are not going well. Some of these are "normal" i.e. everyday stressors but some are non normative stressors. And the stress of not knowing what condition I have (anxiety, bipolar or depression) is adding to my stress/ anxiety / depression.

Anyone would be upset and dealing with sorrowful feelings if they went through what i did over the last 2 years. I can't get into details but it was a rought itme, and not something most people go through. There is one theory that I am just going through a natural grieving process that has been drawn out because in being codependent I have focused on others instead of myself. and have attracted people who want me to focus on them, ergo being rewarded for not taking care of myself. which means i set my needs aside. or have been for a long time.

I am a fighter, I am fighting hard to heal without medications because I am terrified of the side effects and am not convinced that the benefits outweigh the downside to them. What i want is a good assessment by a health professional but that is going to take months. In the meantime I feel like either i am at the mercy of brain chemistry that throws me around like a stormy ocean, or I am just lacking the skills that I need to really address those down times when they come. I must say, over the last few months I know how to work with some of the mood swings when they come but not all of them. I also function at work and when i am doing somethign I enjoy I feel good so do I have depression? When I was depressed years ago nothing felt good for months. that is not how i feel today.

I would like to think that with continued work and practice, i can learn to handle my moods, and as Davit and others have sguggeted, learn how to take care of myself, what to expose myself to etc.. and get a handle on my moods without medications. Today I feel great probably because I was with some really great positive people yesterday and that lifted my mood 100%. I do feel that if i could just find a way to live with less negative people and more positive supportive kind people I would be able to be my happy content self and not get pulled down. I am dealing with my depression and my sensitivity to the negativity around me. All my life I have been around angry depressed people and I know I do not ward off their energy at all. I take it in. Sometimes I come home and feel like I am crying their tears because I absorb all their negativity. It sounds goofy, i know, but it really is how I end up feeling. I come home after being around positive people and I feel all aglow. I know I cannot be so easily influenced by the external world.

I suspect that what I need is a month or so where all I have to do is build more skills and more knowldge of how I want to live in the world and what works for me. Being codependent means I have not lived MY life very often. I go where other people want to go, and if we don't have a good time there, I come home and cry. It is time for me to live MY life and do what I want to do and that will eliminate people who don't want me to be strong but that is ok.

I know in a couple hours I will start to rethink this and rethink whether I have the strength to really accomplish any more progress without medication. Yesterday in the middle of a depressed mood swing I felt convinced I could not keep going without a medication to stop the lows from hitting me once or twice a week. I was also feeling what it feels like to really feel how little community there is in the world today. Sometimes I am able to get inside the feeling of a thought that other people seem to just pass off like "oh well". and i get sucked down by it.I should have done some CBT there but I didn't. I just cried about how little community there is in my world.

I just wish i had a doctor to prescribe me something appropriate ot my symptoms. I am not depressed, I have good moods and bad moods which indicates more bipolar than depression. I should probably find a new doctor right?

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Loves trees

You have seen my description here of how synapses work so you know that they can handle a lot of information when they have to but also can discard information that is not necessary. Medication works by slowing or stopping that flow. but you can do it also manually by concentrating on one thing. (self hypnosis) Or doing something that takes all your concentration so the guards at each synapse are stimulated to discard more information. You are right, TV is a bad idea yet a love storey would not be, (slower action and more concentration), action or adventure with a lot of information flow would be bad too as is comedy because of the added noise. If you are going to watch something I would recommend it be something you already know. I like to work with my lathe because it takes all my focus yet is not complicated. Much like sunny does with a hobby.

~m's "Zentangling" sounds interesting.

There is also a technique where you close your eyes and try to see a colour, green is a very common one to try to see. The object being to try to fill your whole mind with one colour. I think you could do it with a favourite scene, say a field of flowers. The object here is to shut down as much information going through the synapses. See what you have is information overload. It was not a problem when you had something to do with it but now you don't. Remember then though how tiring it could get at the end of the day. Alcohol doesn't work any better than a cup of tea. See it is the routine that breaks the cycle not the alcohol and some teas like camomile actually help. Caffeine and chocolate make it worse but a routine where you have a small piece of chocolate and thoroughly enjoy it might work. Same with cigarettes.

there is absolutely nothing in a cigaret to calm you, it is the routine. That and possible oxygen deprivation. Hope this helps

Here for you

Davit

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 2606

Hi lovestrees,

You have received some really great feedback and tips from ~m and sunny. Do check out the relaxation technique section in the program. Clearing your mind on a regular basis will be very helpful, try out a few different techniques to see what works best for you.

Members, how do you clear your mind?

Samantha, Health Educator

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1665

Hi: Sounds good m - going to look that up. This is what a hobby is for too. Yes, it is a form of distraction, but that's o.k. to me. It gives your mind a chance to do something else and relax it from the overthinking. A hobby or interest, is something which can be used to relax at the end of the day. A hobby can be tiring if it's new, you're just learning it, but once you know it and become familiar, it relaxes you. Sports or fitness can be great too for relaxing - a time out from all the thinking.

Just some ideas,

Your friend, Sunny

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 376

How interesting... have you been camping out in my brain? Everything you said makes absolute sense to me... the people who think it is great, the people who don't notice because it benefits them.... any mental health person I see ALWAYS says I think too much. I used to think :) they were crazy for thinking it was a bad thing. It's what I do best! Think, think, think... except it kinda sorta ends up tying us in knots. As you noted.

I have discovered a new meditation thingy that you might try. It is called "Zentangling" ... if you do an internet search you can find more info, but basically it is learning these really intricate patterns that take total concentration to do... and these pictures just seem to form themselves out of it. I've been a doodler all my life (it's calming) but this is doodling at a whole different level. I've been doing this for about a month and even when I'm not drawing.... if I find myself getting anxious w/mind racing... I can plan a new pattern and try to figure it out in my mind..... then everything else just falls away. I don't even notice that I'm getting calmer until I look up and realize I've been lost "in the zone."

I hope you will give it a try... I'd love to know if you find it helpful too.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 356

This program is great and I went from someone with no awareness of the effect of my negative thoughts to much better awareness of the effect of my thoughts on my well being and an ability to change many negative thoughts into positive ones. However....

My mind is wearing me out. That sounds weird but I dont' know how else to put it. I have too many thoughts in a day. I am sitting here thinking that the only 2 options are to do something that aims to reduce the number of thoughts, or take medication . I have never been on medication of any sort and I have no idea if it will reduce the number of thoughts i have in day or not but I suspect with all the meds out there these days there is something - either anti anxiety or mood stabilizer that would slow my brain down. Not all the thoughts are negative, a lot of them are just analytical thoughts but I am tired of having them all day long! It interferes with my ability to stay concentrating on what is goin on around me. Even the positive ethoughts are intrusive in that I am tired of being so 'on' all the time and thinking so much in general. I find myself wishing i could have the mind of some people i know who don't sem to have this problem at all. i wonder what it is like not to think so much.

This will all probably sound very odd to anyone who hasn't also noticed they think a lot and have a hard time calming the mind.

Its taken me years to get to the point where I don't think of this as some great thing because there can be a lott of rewards in this world for being able to think a lot. You can get a lot done at work if you can follow up on each task with the right train of thought (so I am a good worker bee and always have been). You can also impress people by thinking about them and doing things for them but as i mentioned in previous posts i've made, i'm making an effort not to be so codependent. In other words, no one in my life has noticed i am thinking too much because it often benefits them.Also I have been friends with over thinkers who value this as a positive thing. But now i am not so sure that it is.

So maybe now that I am not letting myself use my "powers of over thinking" to think about what to do for others or exxcel at my job I am realizing how much I need the ability to not think so much.

I know lots of people who zone out with tv or drinking or smoking or shopping and I've tried all those things in my life to see if they do anything but they don't. People have actually suggested to me to just go shopping more or have a drink to calm down. I disagree and think that is bad advice. Those are just distractions. What I am seeking is a real way of becoming a more calm and steady person without a mind that thinks all day every day. I suspect my options are medication or buddhism (because of its focus on calming the mind and also thinking without fear) but I am hoping some of the moderators or members can wiegh in here if you've been here.

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too many thoughts in a day