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9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Some things to keep in mind, Triggers last less than a second before they open short term memory. Short term memory asks long term memory for instruction. Long term memory, not short term dictates the action. The action cycles back to both. To short term for the next question and to long term for future reference. So to change memory you do it right after short term asks long term for instructions. This is in the Thought triangle some times referred to as a Panic triangle. During a panic attack long term memory sends panic back to short term memory which keeps asking long term for an answer and long term keeps sending back the same answer because that is what is at the top of it's choices.

It does this because as you know negatives have priority for survivals sake. Changing thought patterns changes the reaction and the priority to less negative so there is a chance to use a positive. The negative is still there but weaker than the positives so is passed over as soon as it is seen to be not needed. This search and pass is a constant and a good thing or panic attacks would last for ever. Normally if the search does trigger panic it is less than a minute and causes a rise in heart rate and sweating is all and passes as it draws a logical answer from long term memory. So it is not the trigger or short term memory that causes the panic attack but long term memories priority which it built out of repetition. So repetitive positive answers will shorten panic attacks duration till they no longer happen. Panic still happens but gets passed over. Unlike medication that dulls the senses it registers the trigger as not important unless it is. The choice is still there. It does it fast and subconscious so you don't even know it happens. Unless you look for it. This looking for it is what setbacks are.

Exposure is a chance to see how well the positives are established in memory. Stop exposure as soon as negatives show before they can get cycled back into long term memory and do relaxation and coping to keep the flow positive and you will be okay. The object is to build proper priority pathways. Keep at it. Life without Agoraphobia and panic attacks is great.

Davit

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 219

David,

You are doing great in understanding what Davit is telling you. That's a plus to your recovery. I did notice you mention you were already on Step 4. Is this Session 4-Exposure? If so, can I suggest you pace yourself? Take a little more time to go over each Session before moving forward. When I first started the program I wanted to get through as much as possible as quickly as possible to find a cure to relieve the anxiety and stop the panic attacks. I had to learn to pace myself and got more from each Session by doing so.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 8

Again thanks a lot for all the help! I am starting to understand my panic attacks (why they happen/ triggered) and the Agoraphobia. The way I see it (and your help understanding) our brains are no different than a computers CPU. In that whatever input (programing it gets) will base the outcome of anything tasked of it. May sound weird unless you know how computers work? In effect, I am finding out that the human brain is not so different than a super computer. Both are based on memory & programing. When we as humans have had bad results based on past experience’s (like Davit said), our brains tend to categorize them and remember them as a priority! For example if you type in any key word via Google, Windows Search for Files, etc., the result will be “priorities” based solely on past search references and results as it’s priority! The same can be said about an onset of Panic attack. So what happened last time you started feeling this way? If like me a little common nervousness that most anyone would experience in the same situation was the trigger! The remembering, the “bad programing”, “the full blown panic attack from the past”, etc.. We are ALL hard wired like a computer to skip over any rationality and go immediately in thinking to a negative place in the past in our own minds! As I have read, this scenario could have been of great use via our ancestors past but now a days can be more so a burden (fight or flight) responses that are certainly unwelcome!

Something to “think about” as like most that overthink everything that may be reading this as I do? Do you know there are a TON of people that PAY good money to have the same experience as we suffers get for free? J For example those folks that are into crazy stuff like skydiving, bungee jumping or mountain climbing. Doing so they are all trying to get the same adrenaline kick that you and most reading this can get just by getting on a bus or metro link or in my case just leaving the house for an hour or so?

Just something to think about for now. Looking forward in continuing this program. Will be on Step 4.0 Monday and am certain it will be the most challenging part?

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

I have that book and it is a very good book. On the subject of blood tests. Any of the minerals that are used in the make up of Neurotransmitters should be at the high end of the test. You use them faster than normal.

Calcium is one of the most important and has to be balanced with magnesium and the other electrolytes. This balance is in your body, not in your dosing. For me, I take a lot more calcium than any of the others. Also because I have no teeth I can not draw calcium or magnesium from them. I lost them to infection, antibiotics and the subsequent loss of magnesium. Some antibiotics are hard on magnesium and my teeth got soft. They lost all feeling and would break off.

It is important to keep these levels up or your lower jaw will lose bone and dentures won't fit.

In this part of Canada surgical removal of teeth in a hospital is free.

Davit

PS, Neurotransmitters are different in that some open gates, some close them and one dopamine can do either. There are herbal teas that can work on them, as can alcohol and street drugs. The teas don't have the rebound that the others do. Caffeine opens gates, calcium closes them. Alcohol closed then forcing them to use other routes, often paths you don't want to use. Alcohol is a depressant. Street drugs increase dopamine production but since it can go either way the result can be what you don't want and eventually you will not be able to produce dopamine without the street drugs.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 219

David,

In the beginning I did this with a holistic approach. First and foremost you should see a Dr to have blood work done. Just to see if it is something as simple as low magnesium, calcium, and/or a vitamin deficiency of any sort. Secondly, if you want to try a holistic approach, there is a book "The Anxiety and Phobia Workbork" Fifth edition" that has suggestions for holistic nutrition near the back of book. I still take 2 of the over the counter suggestions daily and my Dr is comfortable with me taking them along with my current medication. Hope this helps you with your holistic approach.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Hello David

If I go by my experience then yes that is a classic panic attack including the wiped out feeling. You may think it can't get any worse but it can. You might end up hiding from people and getting tunnel vision and stop breathing when the phone rings. You might get so you don't go anywhere unless there is somewhere to sit and a bathroom near by. Traveling anywhere you won't see anything but the immediate area around you. Things will happen faster than you can keep track of. These are all "fight or flight". Why does this happen. To explain that you have to get into how information travels and how memory works. That would take pages and I have posted it all here for the curious.

There are different types of memory stored in different parts of the brain but for this post we will deal with just two. Short term and long term. Short term lasts up to a day and is discarded. Long term is permanent. Long term can not be lost but it can be rearranged for priority and this is done with neurotransmitter chemicals and pathways that are all connected. A thought is put together by a number of pathways working together at very fast speed. Priority pathways are built by use, the more they are used the faster the neurotransmitters work and the more likely the right neurotransmitter will be used. This being the case when something in short term is not important because it doesn't fit or is considered not important it is dropped. It doesn't go into long term memory. This works by short term asking long term if it is important. It has two choices, yes this is new but similar or this is similar so we will put it in associated memory for future reference. When you think anything, we will call this a trigger it asks long term memory for a reaction and the reaction you get is based on what long term memory knows about it. It knows lots of things but there is an order to them with the most often and the most negative coming up first. This is a hold over survival pattern you can not get rid of. But it is fast so the negative can be neglected if not needed and that leaves the most often used as the offered answer. If you have to actually think then that answer wasn't what you want and you try another. This happens faster than you can believe. So why the panic attack? Because that is what you have planted as the answer to the trigger. That is what is the priority pathway and that is what is first in all the possible answers in long term memory and since it is negative and negatives have priority for survivals sake "fight or flight" doesn't get skipped over till you can give it a reason too. You won't die because there is a built in limit to how long "fight or flight" stays. Normally about a minute. Long enough to get sweaty hands. But if you keep cycling it, it can last hours. Up to five when mine were bad.

So this is why positives like "want to" work. They get put into long term memory and cover up the negatives. Used often enough they make priority pathways and happen without conscious thought. This is called changing of thought patterns and is CBT at its simplest. Simple yes, but depending on how bad the panic attacks are or the Agoraphobia is it can take a while to change the patterns. Medication works on neurotransmitters blocking the ones that allow negatives to pass. When you stop taking it unless you have done CBT and built new pathways you will be back at square one.

Any questions?

Davit.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 8

Thank you both very much for the replies/ help. After thinking what you both said over, you are both absolutely correct!!! It is not so much about the “situation” it is more so about “control” or “wanting to do something” vs “made or having to do something”! For example the dentist scenario; I was told a year or so ago that my teeth need all to be pulled and get dentures. As I was in excruciating pain nearly every day with two of the teeth for years, I was happy to hear that and told them “YES LETS GET THOSE TWO OUT” no problem and no pain and was so happy I agreed to get them out afterwards. Now that those two painful teeth are gone, this recent visit (6 months latter) that I should have gone and had 4 more pulled was canceled by me due to a full blown panic attack. The teeth they want to pull next don’t even hurt. I know they need to go and have to work around what my health insurance allows per year for extractions. In other words as you both said, I lost “control” of that situation and is what spurred this last full blown panic attack and canceled the appointment!!! It was so freaking bad lasting almost an hour, I could barely walk (spaghetti legs), tried to talk to a few business clients on the phone and couldn’t, etc.. After it was all over, I was mentally and physically “wiped out” for the remainder of the day almost lethargic & even into the next day! QUESTION; is that normal to be “wiped out” after a full blown attack?

I will continue to work through this program. I know dr prescribed drugs can be of great help but want to try it first drug free. I do appreciate your suggestions and any help you can offer!

Sincerely… David

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 219

Hi David,

I have been here since June and most recently discovered some not so good things in regards to my panic attacks and agoraphobia that has helped me greatly. Along with the CBT here, I am reading a book in regards to boundaries and have numerous helpful friends who believe in being held accountable. Is anyone holding you accountable? You want to take accountability, by taking the first step and admitting it. Now you need someone to hold you accountable for your actions when you withdraw. Make it a goal of "want to" instead of have to like Davit suggested. Good luck and looking forward to hearing about your successes with this.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Welcome David.

You realize that by using your name that you are confident and that confidence is what makes you successful. It gives you control and control is the basis of Agoraphobia or more so the lack of it. But control of a business deal and control of Agoraphobia are two different things. Like so many things control is a condition different in different situations.

Take riding a bus. The driver has control of the bus, you do not and it is worse if you do not like being in a bus you can't leave while it is moving because you have to be. Classic Agoraphobia. It could be any situation you have no control over. Like the dentist. But you can have control. And it is simply by being there because you want to be there. That makes it your decision and you are in control. This is changing thought patterns and is how CBT works.

Try it. Make a mantra based on "I want to" rather than "I have to" and give it time to build a core belief and see if the Agoraphobia goes away. See if it can counter the false interpretation that you have to do anything. In a short while "have to" will be interpreted to mean "I want to" or "I'm going to". It will be anything but the lack of control "have to" that is holding you back. Just a matter of interpretation. You will notice the word "I" puts the onus on you and what ever word comes after is the condition. The controlling factor of the word before it. Again it is about control. Not about the situation that needs control. The situation is always static. It is just the trigger, interpretation is the action. (panic triangle, a proven way of thinking)

Davit.

9 years ago 0 +0 / -0 8

First off, thank you VERY much to the owners and contributors of this website! I have read over the main page and just finished with “Step 1” of the panic program. I must say that it was very enlightening and encouraging to understand that I am not “the only one”! More so the “avoidance” scenarios that unfortunately I have fell victim to and been a reluctant member of for the last 5+ years. Also the help in differentiating some one that has Panic Attacks than someone that has Agoraphobia such as myself. With that in mind, I just had an experience today (a trip to the dentist to get several teeth pulled) that made me so uncomfortable I did some research and found your website. What a blessing! Up until now, nothing has worked for me other than self-medication (alcohol) only to capture fleeting glimpses of feeling good in my own little world. I am a very productive member of society and in fact own several of the top selling collectible coin & bullion firms on eBay that isn’t a problem. The problem I have is not being able to do things as a family man should. I rarely leave the house, I even more rarely do anything that is enjoyable in a normal since and I know that is certainly putting a strain on my marriage as well as family life with my children and relatives. So far everything you have said about being agoraphobic really just nailed it for me!!! In that I will continue with the program set forth and would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks again… David

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