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13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 376

Davit, your explanations are so helpful in furthering my understanding of the process. It is rather remarkable how closely related are anxiety and depression. Logically, they seem such opposites. Practically, a lot of people experience both. I do know it is not only possible, but helpful to work both the Panic and Depression sites. I have gained so much from both. Additionally, I am a regular at the Alcohol Help Center. There is a lot of cross-over for me, and I suspect other ppl as well. CBT can address them all... individually or concurrently. I am awed at the progress I've made in the short amount of time I've been frequenting the Evolution Health sites. What a blessing! Most important are the fellow travelers, like yourself, I've been privileged to meet on these sites. We, as humans, are herd creatures after all.... it has taken me a lifetime to understand the power of community.

(especially for us oranges :)

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

I know that saying changing core beliefs is an easier concept than burying them and every one would like them gone but even if you think they are gone they still are not unless you physically destroy parts of your brain where they are stored. Like in a stroke. or certain dementia's. Now this is disheartening because it sounds like you will need constant vigilance. Not so. Just like you can build negative cores or thoughts on a negative core, you can also build positive too. If you change your perception of a negative core belief it appears to have changed, but not really. It is now buried with one layer. If you write down a positive thought about this core it is now buried in a second layer. Saying it out loud adds another layer. As long as you believe it. If you don't believe it then you will get negative layers like the icing in a cake and all your work building positives below this layer are all for nothing. (set backs) Fortunately these negatives are weak and easier to rebury. Also over time although you can't remove these negative thoughts from your memory they do seem to fragment. Pieces seem to go missing. I don't know why, possibly where they are stored dies but it seems that if you try hard you can keep this negative thought alive by filling in the pieces with imagination and that I think is worse because it has no basis.

As you start to accept that these thoughts and beliefs are not true they get easier to bury. Here also you are adding to your coping skills. It is easier to tell the panic to go away because you now know it has no reason to be there other than that some trigger has opened a negative. I never said you would totally get rid of these negatives only that they will be so weak against all the positives that they will have little or no effect. Anxiety is normal, what you do with it dictates whether it fades or turns into panic. And even panic doesn't have to turn into an attack if you have built coping skills to deal with it. Such as acceptance like saying "I must be tired I let a negative thought through, Go away".

I know this seems too simple but it does work.

I have mentioned attitude. Perception and belief are harder for the depressed person because they have a poor attitude. The depressed person is most likely to have a negative attitude. Like "this isn't going to work" or "why bother" or "it is taking too long" The depressed person is going to have a harder time time accepting it works or putting in the time.

That is where the group comes in. It is our job to see you have a reason to keep working at it.

As for the depression, that is for the depression site to handle. It is possible to work both sites.

Here for you,

Davit.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 376

Davit, thanks as always for your understanding and support. I like what you have said before about covering the negative core beliefs with positive thoughts and experiences. So that when a negative core belief is activated.... you have a whole layer of positives to pass through before you have to freak out (my term... you put it more eloquently). That notion (and the accompanying visual) gives me great hope for the future. It just makes so much sense to me.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

For what it is worth, even right up to my last sessions with my therapist I could still get that blank can't follow the question times. Usually if she hit me with something I didn't realize I was doing. Like being negative because I was sad. Good luck with the core beliefs, just knowing they are there can make a big difference. You don't have to change them (can't anyway) just your perception and attitude towards them. Dealing with them will be a major turning point. Please keep us posted. I visit that site also but usually only to read. I don't have depression so I have no experience. Still it is interesting.

Here for you,

Davit.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 376

Have checked out the section on core beliefs in the Depression Center and feel it is definitely time to go through those lessons now. It helps that Red/Sid is working over there now too... I don't feel so alone (or like the new kid).

One good note about success.... today I had a very difficult session with my therapist. When things get tough I have a tendency to just kind of mentally check out in session to where I don't hear or feel much of anything. Today, I started feeling nauseated and dizzy like I was going to pass out.... but then I started the box breathing, and making myself aware of my surroundings by asking those questions and I was able to stay present throughout the entire session. Did some really good work too! And I didn't die from it!!!

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 376

Davit, you describe the feeling perfectly! I also think you are spot on about getting through exposure thinking "I survived" . I do want to change my experience into enjoyment. I had only been focusing on not freaking out. Thank you Vincenza for the suggestion about reading the core beliefs section. A lot of good advice in both these posts... I feel hopeful again just reading them and will try to find time tomorrow to process a lot of this. Thanks so much!

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 1853

Hello,

Davit (I like your new profile pic!)...You raise some good points and good tips on coping skills and acknowledging the role that core beliefs play in the way we handle different and difficult situations.

~m, If you have not looked through it already, I suggest you work through the section called "Core Beliefs" that is part of the toolbox on the Depression Center site. It helps explain what core beliefs are and helps to reveal personal core beliefs which we often store in our subconscious.

It sounds like you have made great progress already as you are able to manage exposures. I hope you are rewarding yourself with your accomplishments.

I'm also glad you continually come to the forums to share your experiences and support others at the same time.

Please continue to do so, and let us know what you discover along the way as you learn coping skills that work for you.

Vincenza, Health Educator

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Yes I know that drained feeling. Like a squeezed lemon, what's left isn't worth saving. I don't have depression (chemical) but I still get the feeling that it isn't worth the trouble. Fortunately a lot of the triggers and negative thoughts fade over time and get replaced with enjoyment. What was difficult becomes fun so it no longer triggers anxiety. I'm sure it is the anxiety that is fatiguing. Because the same activity with out the panic is far less tiring. I find I bounce back quicker. I keep flogging relaxation and coping skills as a necessary part of exposure. Exposure is done to prove there is nothing to fear but with out coping skills you leave the exposure thinking I survived instead of thinking there is nothing there to fear. Doing exposure without the coping skills will condition you to do it even though it hurts but the fear will still be there next time. Coping and relaxation take away the fear and allow you to accept there is nothing to fear. They also give you some protection against the unexpected. With coping skills in place you some times don't even know you are doing exposure.

I suppose I should explain coping skills for the new members. Mostly they are distractions to take the focus off the exposure. Self talk to replace the negative thoughts with positive.

EG: When stuck in traffic instead of focusing on being stuck in traffic you focus on something else. Is the sun shining, is that a new store, how many cars are white, how many are red.

Of course you need to build coping skills for each situation, but basically the process is the same for each situation. In time you do it unconsciously.

And remember that if it is a form of agoraphobia you are doing exposure to that you need to take back control as a coping skill. And since so many things fall under this phobia remembering the mantra "it is my decision" becomes a very good coping skill.

What you are doing is burying a core belief, one from long ago or one you have build on some newer situation. You can build core beliefs on an older core belief. What the exposure does is allow you to see how false these core beliefs are. So if you can find the root core and do exposure to prove it false all the core beliefs you built on it fall by the wayside and you don't have to do exposure to them because they have no power.

Take Juanitas fear of bridges. It was a core built on a core that she couldn't do it. Once she proved that core was false all the other ones fell away. Heights, elevators, other bridges, and crowds. Only one exposure left to do and that is as she says, Flying. That one can be tough because of the time and the element of agoraphobia but I think she will do it okay with coping skills and enjoying the experience.

So again, look closely at your core beliefs, what do they have in common. Maybe they are not what you think, maybe they are hiding the root. And the root is the one you need to change. (bury)

Here for you,

Davit.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 376

Do I experience relief from the exposures or need help coping? Good question. I had not thought about that. I do well during the exposures... recognize them more quickly, can calm myself with relaxation techniques, counter the fear with the logic facilitated from asking those 10 questions.... that part is much better. It is the aftermath that trips me up... I just feel totally drained... completely exhausted... I find myself taking all weekend to recoup from the previous week so nothing else gets done except me just sitting around drawing or playing games on the computer. Then I get upset because I'm behind on all my household chores and neglecting my responsibilities.

Also, when I'm so exhausted other thoughts and feelings (mostly of sadness and grief ) come rolling in with new information or something I had not realized before and I just feel slayed by it. Slayed. The depression is really nipping at my heals .... I really want to crawl in a bottle and numb out, but I'm fighting that response too. I'm just so tired of fighting for my life... ya know? You do. I know you do. Fortunately I do have my monthly appointment with my therapist on Thursday AND I can always come here. I'd be really lost without you all.... actually, without this space.... I would just go ahead and give up because doing better would not even seem a possibility.... I would either drink myself through it or check myself into the loonybin.... neither is an option anymore.

Sooooo, long winded answer to your question.... Yes, I need to work on my coping skills.

13 years ago 0 +0 / -0 6252

Make sure they are special rubber boots so you can wade through all the crap.

Anti panic rubber boots. Too bad there wasn't an anti panic umbrella to deflect all the fallout from exposures. Exposure is still exposure, whether planned or not. Are you getting relief by doing them or do you need to work on coping skills?

Here for you,

Davit.

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