Get the Support You Need

Learn from thousands of users who have made their way through our courses. Need help getting started? Watch this short video.

today's top discussions:

logo

The Patchwork Quilt of Addiction

Timbo637

2025-06-29 5:59 PM

Quit Smoking Community

logo

What food is actually considered Healthy..?

Evolution

2025-03-03 11:17 AM

Healthy Weight Community

logo

Health Educators or Moderators missing?

Evolution

2025-03-03 11:16 AM

Quit Smoking Community

logo

Est- ce qu'il y a des forums actifs en franc¸ais ?

Timbo637

2025-02-20 12:27 PM

Quit Smoking Community

This Month’s Leaders:

Most Supportive

Browse through 411.778 posts in 47.070 threads.

161,876 Members

Please welcome our newest members: test2, bukata.a, MissBlackorchid, mangosnpears, HelloThere

100 days today


10 years ago 0 315 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Dave and Foxman give it a rest. You two are out of control. 
AA is there for the people that want it, it is the last option for most. They have to hit a real rock bottom for be humble enough to walk into the rooms. When they want it the doors will always be open all will be made welcome.
If you don't like God that is fine, your mind can be your higher power, who cares as long as you make an effort to do the next right thing.
Dave will always have an opinion that is against AA due to a bad experience, believing he can do it himself. Like it or not Dave this site is on the concept of an AA meeting. Problem drinkers helping problem drinkers stay sober. The 12 steps are just a suggested means to living a good life, doing right things. I know lots of people that go to meetings and never really get into the steps. Will they stay sober hope so, will they be happy hope so. Me I chose to get into the steps cause my life was a mess. It is not as big of a mess now.
If the two of you would put your ego aside, I will do the same. There are drunks on here that can use a little what it was like, what happened and what it is like now to help them in recovery. 
10 years ago 0 1562 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
That is actually quite disrespectful.

Disrespectful? How? I was just trying to just explain there are many atheist/agnostics that have successfully used the program and was pointing to the fact that the co-founder was an agnostic?

Are you scared that people will try AA? Look inside that fear. 

I said "I hope it's not just a 12 step program".

Why do you even have to come up with a statement?  
10 years ago 0 1009 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
"Why is it then, everytime I share about my experience with AA and the 12 steps or quote from the book you have an issue."

Actually, it was you who started this exchange on this thread, not me. I said "I hope it's not just a 12 step program". It was a comment made to the original poster, not you. And, in spite of the fact the he subsequently said "I'm not overly interested the 12 step program because I'm an atheist and cringe at hearing people talking about God or their higher power all the time" you still continue to shove your "higher power" stuff on him. That is actually quite disrespectful. 

And, as I have mentioned, I did reach out to AA in the beginning and I have also been involved with 12 step programs enough to know it wasn't for me but I definitely know enough to make an educated comment about them. It's great you have such a deep appreciation for the 12 step program and AA. It works for you and it works for others. Conversely, AA and the 12 steps have had an incredibly detrimental effect on many people and that is also something that cannot be ignored. 

"And you always bring up the success rate."

Actually I don't. What I do see though is the fact you speak in extreme's, and ascribe those extremes to my perspective on recovery, which is not in anyones best interest because it is part of the problem. It's a cognitive distortion that your 12 steps seemed to have skipped over. If you re-read your responses you'll see what I mean. 

10 years ago 0 1562 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
As I have said in the past, each person needs to find the resources that speak to them, whether it is AA, Smart Recovery, Rational Recovery, ADAPT, ACoA....whatever, or combinations of all of them.

Why is it then, everytime I share about my experience with AA and the 12 steps or quote from the book you have an issue. And why do you mis-represent the 12 steps. Do you have a working knowledge of the 12 steps? I wouldn't share my opinion on other recovery programs, if I have not gone through it. Thats the issue I want to bring forth. I don't care if you share your own experience.  

Perhaps re-visiting your moral inventory and resentment list may be in order because I sense you have a few unresolved ones yourself.

Thank you for your concern. I have the 12 steps and beauty of it is, its a program designed for living. The first 43 pages deals with drinking rest of the recovery portion is all about conecting to the power so we don't have to walk on egg shells when it comes to booze. And you always bring up the success rate. Its a success if an individual honestly works the program. And the key is we alcoholics have to keep growing spiritually otherwise its bound to fail. Thats the nature of this disease. The theory, which I know you don't subscribe to. Which is perfectly fine. I am addressing to people who understand the fatal nature of this issue. 
10 years ago 0 1009 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0

Foxman, you jump to conclusions and make assertions that simply don't exist. To suggest I'm against the entire treatment industry is nonsensical and is something you have manufactured in your own mind. As I have said in the past, each person needs to find the resources that speak to them, whether it is AA, Smart Recovery, Rational Recovery, ADAPT, ACoA....whatever, or combinations of all of them. As to the 12 steps being the "best they've got so far"......well, that's a little arrogant to suggest the idea. It's one method, which happened to be the first mainstream program, however, if you do doe research you'll find the attrition rate of AA to be very high and the success rate to be about 5%. And some people just don't want to be force-fed the ideology. If AA sorts out 5% of those with an extreme alcohol abuse problem then that's a good thing. If this site solves the problem for 5% of the people (although I think it's much higher) that is great too. 


As to resentments....again you jump to a conclusion and impose a label on my perspective that doesn't exist. I don't resent the whole treatment industry or AA or you for that matter. Actually, when I consider the idea, I don't resent anything or anyone. Resentments are negative, self-destructive forms of thinking and have no place in my life. Yes, hanging that label on many forms of thinking is a cornerstone for AA, however, it misses the point and, as pretty much everyone here are adults, I would hope we've outgrown that type of thinking. If not, definitely eliminate it. 

As to your comment "And I don't gaurantee recovery like you do with your limited experience....." Save the insults for someone else. There is nothing wrong with giving someone hope and confidence in themselves and encouraging them to take affirmative action to assume control of this problem and their lives. I sincerely hope I have had at least a small influence in even one persons success here. Maybe in the future I can help someone else based on my "limited experience", which extends to 30+ years of an pretty severe drinking problem, subsequently quitting, and researching the problem to the Nth degree, which includes AA. Perhaps re-visiting your moral inventory and resentment list may be in order because I sense you have a few unresolved ones yourself. 

Peace

Dave

 
10 years ago 0 1009 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Hi TS,

Great post. I couldn't agree more. Thank you for sharing your insights.

All the best,

Dave
10 years ago 0 1009 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
Hi a77734,

Well done on pulling back and best of luck with the retreat. My original point was that we need to address the drivers for our alcohol abuse problem, whatever they may be. I had a look at the site and it looks amazing, with a lot of excellent programs and resources. I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience and have no doubt you all find success. Thank you for sharing.

All the best,

Dave
10 years ago 0 345 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0

I’m really struggling to understand why anyone would need to label the various degrees of alcohol dysfunction. What difference does it make whether a person is a true alcoholic, a hard drinker or drunk or just drinks several alcoholic beverages each night or every weekend? As long as the person in question perceives that he or she has a problem with control then a problem is what it is. It can be just as difficult to stop or modify a behavior regardless of its frequency. By discounting or minimizing one persons struggle over another’s simply discourages the less frequent drinker from addressing their habit or fooling themselves into thinking that their perception is false and continue to abuse. The fact remains that alcohol abuse can be progressive in nature and the individual that seeks support for nightly indulgences or weekend binges is simply dealing with their problem a little earlier than the person who has lost everything. The process of abstaining or moderating is no less difficult.

I also do not grasp why the nature or severity of the trigger would play a part in a persons ability to address a maladaptive response to said trigger. Does it not have more to do with the resiliency and the person’s constitution? PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is not reserved for the obvious. If that were the case the industry built around human despondency wouldn’t be so lucrative. There are a plethora of variables when it comes to human suffering. Furthermore, not everyone is dealing with past hurts when they develop a substance abuse issue. Therefore does it really matter whether a person was sexually abused as a child, raised by boozing caregivers, works for an abusive boss or is overwhelmed by the day to day? What matters is an individual’s ability to cope. Is the individual able to put the event in perspective? Can the person acknowledge the issue, own it and then move on?

That is why we are here. We are searching for a supportive environment where our problems are the same but different. Our goals are also shared. No one here suffers more than any other in their own right with their battle. I hope that eventually I won’t have to “work” at anything. No steps, no perpetual recovery, no worry or thought given to alcohol ever again. I want freedom. The same freedom I feel from smoking. I do not ever worry about relapsing and starting to smoke again. In my opinion, true freedom from alcohol, means modifying behavior so that alcohol has no further impact on my life. How I get there is irrelevant.

TS

10 years ago 0 1562 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0
So glad you were able to stop after the 10 day binge. And am glad you found a program that looks promising for you and I wish all the best there. And also appreciate you honest opinion about the 12 steps of AA. Just wanted to let you know co-founder of AA Bill W was an agnostic. You will see the struggle he goes through when his friend Ebby throws at him ideas from Oxford group. You can see it in his story. Its then when Ebby asks Bill to come up with his own Conception of God. Yes thats all I needed, I had to come up with my own conception of GOD. 

I like what Eckhart Tolle talks in his Book about this:

If you are unable to look beyond such interpretations and so cannot recognize the reality to which the word points, then don't use it. Don't get stuck on the level of words. A word is no more than a means to an end. Ifs an abstraction. Not unlike a signpost, it points beyond itself. The word honey isn't honey. You can study and talk about honey for as long as you like, but you won' t really know it until you taste it. After you have tasted it, the word becomes less important to you. You won't be attached to it anymore. Similarly, you can talk or think about God continuously for the rest of your life, but does that mean you know or have even glimpsed the reality to which the word points? It really is no more than an obsessive attachment to a signpost, a mental idol.

10 years ago 0 345 logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo logo 0

Hi a77734,

I just checked out The New Life Foundation retreat that you’ll be joining in a few weeks. It appears to be a very relaxing (plus nice and warm) place to be. I live in Canada so any place that’s warm is really inviting this time of year. The retreat appears to be a place where you’ll have the opportunity to learn some new life skills as well as getting a handle on your maladaptive relationship with alcohol. Glad to hear that you’ve stopped drinking before your departure. Giving oneself permission to drink until a certain date can just fuel the dysfunctional nature of the obsession. I applaud your independent effort of 100+ days AF and your recognition that further support is necessary for you to conquer your addiction. Please be sure to check in here when you complete the program to let us know how you’re doing.
 
Good Luck!
TS

Reading this thread: