I'm sorry I've been quiet for so long. It's good to know that other people are getting something from this discussion -- I've certainly gained a lot, both from Ava's insights and from writing my thoughts down. I'll echo Ava in saying thanks for the positive feedback. Is it affirmations that your counselor is getting you do, Chula? I suppose that they're based on the idea that repetition leads to learning, but my inner critic has a heyday with them, too, if they are eons away from my actual beliefs. I think affirmations can work sometimes, but I'm dubious when it comes to the convoluted core beliefs that we've developed, embedded, and fiercely protected over the years because they are our safe place. Perhaps it is that simple: memorize new, positive beliefs to replace the old, wonky ones, but what comes to mind is a double-exposed photo -- the original image is still there, distorting the new image. I like your summary, Ava. I think of it as protecting my inner child, but that may be because I'm a mother. I don't know if you have kids, but the instinct to protect them is the strongest one I have. Do you know, though, as I write this I realize that I don't think I give my inner child as much credit as I do my daughters for strength and resilience. It's my inner child who's world is defined by those core beliefs, and perhaps I've been refusing to really examine them because I don't want to tear apart her world. But as you said earlier, maybe she is more resilient than I think. We all have different analogies that are meaningful -- thanks, Ava, for helping me to frame mine more clearly. I think I can work on my core beliefs now. I'm going to start another thread about belonging and fit, following on from another part of our discussion. You, me, several others here and in another self-help group (face-to-face) that I participate in have mentioned something about being out-of-synch with their environments and I wonder why. Perhaps it will dud, but even so... I'm glad that you got a break from your drill sergeant, Ava. Now you know how you can shut him up!:)

Chula: I can only imagine trying to do your "homework". Maybe she's trying to make you conscious of your discomfort with these statements, rather than trying to re-program yourself with them (which would seem a bit far-fetched). If that's the case you can say them, feel strange about them, and still learn something just by watching your own reaction. Like you said, I think we're all just trying to understand our own minds, and perhaps because ours have taken a few wrong turns along the way, we have to look a lot closer than most people. And many thanks for your kind words on the discussion thread here, I agree I have learned a great deal from this exchange. It means a lot to me that I can share these things with people who really understand, and it definitely helps me feel less isolated or freakish, so I truly appreciate you expressing your thoughts. Ava

I've been reading the dialog between Ava and Confused, and have really identified with what you have both been saying. I recently started going to a counselor, and at the last session I brought up my negative self-talk. She made me read sentences out loud of things that I should be proud of. It made me feel really funny and embarrassed. All I could do was smile and blush, because I felt so uncomfortable. As my "homework" I'm supposed to say them every day, but haven't done so at all. It does feel much more comforting to remind myself that I'm worthless or that bad things are happening because that's what I deserve. It seems crazy that these words are comforting, but I've been saying them to myself for so many years, I guess it's just what I'm used to hearing. Saying to myself "You are a good person" or anything like that just makes me thing "Yeah right, who are you kidding". Anyway, thank you both for sharing so much and giving me more insight into the way our minds work. :)

Mybi Hello again, I saw your post in another thread, but wanted to add something here too. The post from Confused in this thread offered me a great insight - although it took a while for it to really sink in. The idea was that even if negative self-talk is the stuff we're supposed to challenge, at least it came from a good intention if it was about comforting myself. That can seem like cold comfort indeed, and it's certainly not the same as saying it's a good thing to do, but I think what Confused was getting at, and what I finally got, was that when those moments come around and you're beating your own head against a wall for "comfort", at least it means you have a good instinct, deep down, to comfort yourself, look out for yourself, provide some kind of self-care, a place you feel safe, etc. The tools are bad but life sometimes hands us bad tools. So the goal is to re-tool, but the base instincts are actually not so bad... does that make sense? Took me a while to really get it, and perhaps look at Confused's post again to get a better version of it. All the best for you and your daughter... Ava

Mybigmouth, Welcome! There is not much you can do or say to make it all better. This is something she needs to deal with on her own. You can support her every step of the way, be a good listener and connect her to appropriate ressources if she needs them. We have a therapy program available as well as other tools that she is more than welcomed to use. Danielle ____________________ The DC Support Team

My daughter is currently feeling this she is 13 bad horrible past, say's it has nothing to do with why she feels negative. I just don't know what to say or do for her????

Confused: Thanks again for a helpful post, and for all the kind things you said. I mentioned them to my drill sergeant and he shut up for a full five minutes. In all seriousness, I can relate to the bit about getting stuck in the process. For me it's been the core beliefs. Just plain stopped me in my tracks. I know it's the root of the negative thoughts, and those I can at least rationally work through, but that core stuff is tricky. Again I suppose I am hanging on to something comforting in them, something that structures my world enough that it's scary to consider going without them. And I am sure my early life had a lot to do with the drill sergeant from a combination of criticism, anger and neglect. But they happened for reasons I can understand as an adult, and even if the people involved weren't saints, neither am I so I don't plan on tossing any stones around. I am not above self-pity and anger, and I certainly wish things had been different but from here on in it's my job to fix what I got left with. After all, it's all about me.... (kidding, kidding...) And I take your point on choosing your company. I am a little younger than you but not by much, so I know the wisdom of that lesson. The problem is that in my hands that logic can justify withdrawing from everyone on the grounds that I don't fit. I realise that the only place I feel ok is when no one else is around, which is fine in some ways since I am not afraid of being on my own. But there is a point when it becomes counterproductive and they do say that poor social networks correlate with depression so I try to work against that instinct to protect myself from negative experiences through isolation. I am sorry the family stuff is a challenge for you. I can understand what you mean about not wanting to excavate something so intimate, but it must also mean you have deep connections there, and maybe they are more resiliant than you think. Finally I wanted to say thanks for a particular phrase in your message... "And then there are the rest of us", it was really nice to read that. From what I see on this site there are a lot of people struggling to get things right, and willing to offer support even when they are shouldering a burden themselves. If that's "the rest o

Confused, Don't be too hard on yourself. Take your time with the program. Tackling daily frustrations is a great starting point. Remember, baby steps and small victories get us towards the bigger challenges. Good support going on here guys! Danielle ______________________ The DC Support Team

Ava You're offering a lot of value to me. I've seen some of your other posts as well -- your support is caring, sensitive and considered, and you offer it readily and with a balancing sense of humour. Even if it's true that you offer nothing else of value to others outside of work, you give a great deal here to people when they need it most so don't sell yourself short. Some people find it easy to juggle all aspects of their life at the same time -- successful at work, active social life, confident and happy children, give back to the community, always relaxed and good-natured, etc. And then there are the rest of us. Welcome :) You're obviously an intelligent person, and you've been on this site for awhile, so I know that you hear each and every cognitive distortion. Comfortable as it is to just believe your drill sergeant, have you tested any of the distortions? I'm stuck in my homework at the Experimenting on my Negative Thoughts part. I say stuck, when I really should say resisting. I've focused in on a few, almost to the exclusion of others, but they are emotionally charged and I'm avoiding standing up to them. I can classify the distortions, I've examined the evidence, etc, and, intellectually, I know that they are distortions. But what if testing them shows that they aren't? It's family stuff, and my family is so important to me that I would rather do my ostrich thing than face that possibility. Somehow, I think that if I keep my thoughts in my head, to myself, then I can safely counter them with my intellectual thinking. But I know that as long as I keep them inside, they will continue to influence my mood and behaviour. I wonder how long a real ostrich can keep its head in the sand for... I've just remembered the Box exercise for managing anxiety/stress, so I will box these few thoughts up, lock it, and put it aside for the time being while I test some of my less emotionally-charged thoughts. Like a traffic jam -- the other cars can't move forward until the crashed and burning vehicles are towed away :) So who is your drill sergeant? He/she/it wasn't always inside your head, even if you've internalized it now. It's very true that people will return to childhood comforts when they need too, as destructive as those comforts may be. Chi

Confused: I don't think of the scripts like an addition, because if things are going well in my life I happily drop them with no "withdrawal". But they are a coping mechanism of some kind, to deal with stuff I find overwhelming. But what I can't figure out is why I find emotional self-flagellation comforting. As you say, the things we make habits of generally have some pay-off, but it's like finding that slamming your head into a brick wall helps cure your headaches. Part of me thinks that if you've had to deal with tough stuff as a kid, returning to something familiar can feel comforting, no matter what it is. I think your Victim idea sounds interesting, and like you say, there's some kind of self-support mechanism in there. My script, if it has a type, is very hostile. Imagine a drill sergeant standing screaming into your ear about how worthless you are to the world, and what a complete flop you are etc. etc. The only thing I can think that achieves is it inhibits me from taking any risks, because it tells me I will not only fail, but humiliate myself and further annoy people who already think little of me. So maybe it is about risk-averse behavior, I don't know. I think there's also a quite egotistical control theme going in them too. In the end, it's all about me, things go wrong because of me, if someone is curt, it's because of me, etc. etc. And as for the world that doesn't make sense, I suppose it comes from having worked very hard, and having reasonable success on the professional side, only to wake up and realise the rest of my life is in a shambles and I have nothing of value to offer other people outside of a work environment. But somewhere I had the idea if you were a "good person" worked hard, was honest and upstanding, etc. etc., things would work out fine. But that's not really true. People want more than some robot, and quite reasonably so. And I lack those skills so I find myself a failure in a social/emotional sense, without ever really having had a fighting chance. So I don't blame other people for the situation, but I know I don't fit because of my lack of social/emotional skills and the upshot of the experience is rejection, for reasons that I can understand in my head, but struggle with all the same. I shoul