Boy, Patrick, did you ever hit the nail on the head! As I learn how to escape the depression I am also learning alot about myself, my behaviors, and relationships. I usually do anything I can to please others. I've learned that that's OK, but going over-board with it is not. I lose myself that way. And that is my contribution to a relationships' demise. I have to remember that I need to love myself, too.

Thank you Patrick. Your posts are really helpful to everyone. I have a very supportive husband (would have been dead long ago without) and we both have supported each others dreams. What I decided was to get selfish about was my #2 son. I demanded that he respond to an e-mail from my hubby. And do you know what? He did!! :-) Hubby of course realized that it was not spontaneous and asked me if I had told son how angry he was. I admitted it but hubby is still happy to have had a response. So, for me, being "selfish", was a HUGE success. Try it everyone. You are worth it.

(Continued) When you put it up on a sheet of paper in writing, "My husband won't let me have a night out with the girls", it looks shocking, doesn't it? It's almost like a scene from a made-for-tv-movie. In effect we are left to deal with childish emotions from our spouses - jealousy, dependency, controlling, petty anger, mean-spiritedness, even threats of abandonment and all the rest. Like a mid-teen screaming for more attention right when the house is burning down. It's unbelievable except that we've seen it happen over and over and we let it slide for the sake of "peace" in the house. Let the kiddy-spouse have what s/he wants just so I can get some sleep! And we roll off into pained aloneness, 'despairing' of an adult relationship with our spouses. How many marriages are about a wife/husband looking after two or three kids and then discovering that there's a big cranky adolescent right there in the marital bed with us? What's that all about? How did we get there? Did we miss something during the courtship? Or were we compromising, compromising, compromising - getting that Rolls Royce and nevermind that it is painted in Day-Glo rainbow colours? "How did I know that s/he was passive-aggressive and controlling when I was in love before we married? I only saw the fun-loving, easy-going lover. I assumed it was going to great when we got married!" So, we get depressed. We are changing. We have to work very hard to change ourselves. It's a struggle and it is frightening all day and worse at night. But we are learning. We are 'breaking' the shell in which we were cocooned and learning to live another, more engaging life. No, I know that nobody is perfect and that we'll never meet Mr or Mrs Perfect - but we'll be stronger when we do meet an educated, emotionally mature partner and we'll know at exactly which point in a relationship it is time to put down the foot and say "Okay, I cannot and will not buy what you're trying to lay down here, Omi Spouse!!" Again, I say listen to your trusted friends and family and, if you have one, a trusted psych. Get tough and selfish about your life. You've only got the one. Don't waste any more of it than you have to... oxo

Hi Poster-ladies, What's the issue here? Is it not being able to face the possibility of Big Row with the spouse when we ask to do something without him/her? Is it that fear of his/her fear that stops us from being 'free'? What was it that Khalil Gibran said? " Spouses are like roots of two trees entwined together, but who rise up in their marriage and stand alone, strong and independent into the sky..." or something like that. As spouses we are supposed to help each other grow as human beings, help us mature, to learn from our mistakes, to, in effect, set us free. If you truly want to know if someone loves you then, like a captured bird in your hands, you must set her/him free. If it loves you it'll come back, if not then you weren't meant to be a true companion to that bird. To tame a wild kitchen hawk you have to stay awake all day and all night sitting near the bird who is tethered to a stand. When the bird trusts you not to kill it, it will allow itself to fall asleep with you sitting there. It has learned trust. I remember once (before I was diagnosed with MDD)I was falling in love with a woman who had serious issues ( bad father, political persecution, witness to mass murder in North Africa and more) and after we'd been together for a couple of months and we were getting ver serious about each other I knew that I couldn't handle all the internal problems she was suffering so I said " I want you and I to go to a counsellor so we can talk about our issues with a professional and so get matters clear for ourselves so we can journey -on into a deeper relationship?" She laughed and ridiculed such a notion. Looking back on it now I can laugh and see how extraordinary such a suggestion was. She must have thought I was nuts - asking a lover, not a spouse, to go into therapy when we'd hardly said "I love you" to each other. What I'm saying here is that I could see that we wouldn't grow together without a 'referee' to sort out and indicate all the negative feelings and thinking between us. Whereas she was quite 'happy' to gather lovers around her and stay hidden in her mind. She was too scared to face her tortured mind and I understand that well. Of course I heard years later that she did go to a talk therapist and started work on herself.

This is so true, I held up hubby for years only for him to tell me to "get over it", "get it together", "stop using depression as an excuse", "why are you always tired", "you need to be institutionalized", etc. All I've been selfish for? Asking for one night a week to get out and do MY thing, whether its shopping or out with friends, or whatever, without HIM. That's it. Hard not to want to go back to being numb...but I DO know I can't and I HAVE been challenging that internally for months...just a daily struggle.

dumpling, The other grandparents are far from perfect people and you know it. Know one is perfect, and to be even close they would want their grandchildren to have both sets of grandparents who can offer them different qualitys, different social skills, different ideas of fun. Money doesnt instil good moral grounding or a set of values. look at poor Britanny spears all the money in the world cant help that poor kid and her own kids. It also doesnt buy happiness, are they truly happy if they have to keep trying to prove they are better than you? Maybe they could use some of their wealth to maybe give you more help, say around the house, a cleaner or something to take the pressure off you. Now that would may make them nearer to perfect. Dont beat yourself up enjoy your time with your grandchildren and when they grow they will make up their own minds if they prefered money or time, love and effection when they were small. I guess it will be you the other grandparents they envy then, Good luck.x

I just have to answer ... Dumpling, It really hurts what you say about the other grandparents.. Perfect? Its exactly what they want you to think of them. Yes, they want it. But: does it mean, they are???? Tho more you want people around you think, you are perfect, the more you need it... i.e. the more you are NOT perfect ... They might have some problems with their self-estimate - believe me. all the best

That's it dumpling! Way to challenge that negative thought pattern! Danielle, Bilingual Support Specialist

I am going to treat this as a behaviour experiment. Besides, son will not be there & DIL wants things to work. And I have asked the other grandparents to please stay away and allow me to bond with the grandkids. I am a competent, highly respected, skilled person. People pay me well for my time and I have never had to "sell" anyone on my services. I may not have material wealth but I have far more valuable things to give my grandchildren. My other children love and respect me. My husband loves me. My mother needs me; my sister with stage 4 cancer needs me. I have nieces and a nephew who think of me kindly. I have many people I have helped along the way and only a few I have hurt. People remember me from over 40 years ago and I can't look too old because I have been warmly recognized by them. Everything will be OK, and if it is not, I will hold my head high and take a long walk in the dessert. And when I come back I will deal with it. I can do this

Dumpling, Perfection is an illusion. It's time to break out the skills you've learned here to help you in this upcoming visit. Thought challenging and relaxation techniques may be particularly helpful. Danielle, Bilingual Support Specialist